Husband & Wife Co-Author a Spy Thriller? The Secret Behind K.B. Brodsky's Beyond Honor

[00:00:15] All right, today our guests are, so should I call you Karen and Bill or KB? Like what do you like to go by? Karen and Bill, we're still separate people. Very good. KB Brodsky, the husband and wife team behind this new upcoming book, Beyond Honor. You got that right there in the back. Welcome to No Limits. Great to have you guys. Thanks for having us. We really appreciate it. Yeah, so I just want to get a little bit more background about you guys. You know, David kind of hinted that maybe you guys were spies

[00:00:45] in a previous life because he said you guys were the real deal. Your book, I've purposely, I have it. It's on my nightstand. I'm going to read it and then my wife's going to read it. But before I wanted to talk to you, I just didn't want to, I wanted to, you know, go into this not knowing anything. So. Well, we really love that David loves to tell people that he thinks that we're spies. Right. Awesome. Awesome. I want to know more about you. What you can tell me at least.

[00:01:15] No, no, no. We, we, you know, we were, so I have been a avid fan of this genre for my whole life for 40 years. And as you could see behind us is just, you know, the bookcase full of everybody that you love and I love and, and Karen. And by the way, you can only see like this whole bookshelf is built. Right. You know, pretty impressive.

[00:01:39] Yeah. Right. So, you know, I, we grew up reading Ludlum and Follett and Le Carré and, you know, all those guys in that genre, David Morrell. And then, you know, then there's a whole new crew of people that's come up like Mark Greaney and Jack Carr and Ben Coase and Rothenberg and Ignatius.

[00:02:02] You know, so I was actually laughing to myself. I feel like I Miyagi myself, you know, like I didn't realize how much I was learning when I was reading all these books. You know, you just kind of, you know, you just, you get so much, you know, 10,000 hours of, of practice you need to master something. I didn't realize that this process of reading all these books was, you know, kind of like laying the groundwork for doing something like this.

[00:02:29] So, you know, we, you know, came up with this idea. I, I, I was, um, in between things and I came up with this idea of this book and we started just, you know, it actually came out quite quickly. Um, and I think it's because of this, like, you know, lifelong love of this genre.

[00:02:49] Um, I can back that up a little bit. By the way, we've been married for almost 30 years. So we're not just writing partners. We have three kids and a big dog. It's, you know, the whole thing. Right. Right.

[00:03:00] So, um, so Bill has professionally worked in commercial real estate for ever. And I was briefly a teacher and then I was a stay at home mom and I did a bunch of volunteer stuff and we just had sort of more of a everyday life. And then when Bill, um, sort of, he disbanded his company, he ran to, I'm going to just tell the story. One day. I sold my partnership interest to my partner. Right, right, right, right. But that wasn't the story.

[00:03:29] The story is one day our oldest son who is, so he was probably 25 a couple of years ago when this all started. Bill just said to us out of the blue, hey, so, um, I've been writing a book and I kind of want to share it with you. And we just looked at each other like, what? We were very nervous and he hands us like 70 pages of this book. And we were just like, okay. And we both start reading it and we read the whole thing.

[00:03:56] And I look at my son and I'm like, oh my God, this is awesome. Like what? And we were just like, we didn't know you could write. And so you have to keep going with this. You have to write this book. And then I, I've, over the years, he, Bill has handed me a million of these books. I love to read. And I read just everything, a wider, a wider range, including some of these awesome thrillers.

[00:04:18] So he said, hey, I want to do this with you. Like I've always been very involved with writing. And so, so he's, so Bill, like, really like he did this for the first draft. So the first draft was the whole plot. And then I took it and then worked on it and kind of helped craft it into the, you know, the, the, the first real draft and added dialogue.

[00:04:41] And then once we had it like in a shape we both liked, um, then we started talking about it and like talking about the characters and talking about, you know, the arcs that we wanted all these characters to have. And then that was when we, I think it became a little bit more like you and me working together. Um, and that's the, that's the big picture.

[00:05:02] Yeah. All right. Yeah. So I've, I've interviewed a couple different, uh, coauthor situations. Um, most recently we've, we've interviewed both Jack Carr and Brad Thor who have come out with, with coauthored books. Uh, both of those very distinctly different. We've also had on our podcast, Andrews and Wilson, you know, they're, they're a co-writing pair. Obviously they also do stuff, uh, individually, you know, each of them have their own kind of style. So you mentioned that, you know, he wrote the first draft, then you got it.

[00:05:29] Like, was it once that whole thing was taken apart, was it like, you know, you're working on this part, you're working on that part. I'm super intrigued by these coauthoring, uh, pairs. Yeah. So, you know, and, and I watched those podcasts that you had with, um, you know, with, with, um, Jack Carr and Woodward and Thor and Ward Larson, is it right? He did the one.

[00:05:56] Um, and you know, it w it was unclear to me. I've been like, everyone's styles a little different, but in the, in like, in like, it's unclear to me what happens like in the nitty gritty, but at some point during this process, you know, in addition to long walks with the dog and I'm like, how are we going to get this guy to Siberia? Like it's, it's gotta make sense.

[00:06:17] You know, like having fun conversations at some point we're sitting across from each other on a Google doc and, you know, kind of like figuring out what, you know, what are the right words? What's the right sequence? Where's the chapter go? And it is, and it turns out from a more solo experience, which I suspect, you know, in the guys we were just talking about, one of them probably writes the initial draft and then sends it to the other guy.

[00:06:44] And they start to, then they have more of a collaboration, but there's a little solo journey at the beginning. Um, and so that, that, that kind of mirrors, I think what we did, which is, is a little solo, you know, getting, getting the white page full of words, you're trying to put the story together and then it becomes more of a collaboration. Right. Yeah. Like, I'm wondering, like, is there, was there ever a time where you guys are both on the same paragraph, like on different computers and Google docs and like adding different dialogue at the same time? God works Google docs. No, he, he tried that once and I was like, absolutely not. This is not happening.

[00:07:14] Yeah. Yeah. We have to stop, but we did have, we did sort of come up with the rules. So whoever makes a comment and we, we edit with comments, the other person, you, you cannot change without making a comment and you can't do anything without comment. Then we will sit down together and go through the comments together and then like approve, approve, approve, approve, approve, approve, but you can't just like, you know, slip. And then there'll be all these moments where I'll be like, Hey, I changed this thing. And he'll be like, I didn't touch it. And I'll be like, definitely touch it. And then I'll be three, two paragraphs down. I'm like, Oh no, it's there. You got it. No, it's right there. Yeah.

[00:07:44] I think some of the intricacies of having a, a, a, a wife do a, you know, wife husband duo. Yeah. Right. So I'm always saying like, you know, how to, how does this actually work? And so we were recently traveling and we were on a long flight and I took an ambient to try to, you know, like jumpstart the time change.

[00:08:32] Yeah. Stupid thing. Right. So I'm sitting at an airport with my phone and I'm like reading my emails and I'm CC'd on it. And I'm like, what the, like, what did you say to this damn? Oh my God. So I had, so I was like, what Bill meant to say was, can't wait to see you in New York city. He'll buy you a beer. Right. And then, so then Don wrote back. He's like, now I see why you guys are running together.

[00:08:56] Perfect. Perfect. Yeah. So speaking of like, so how did you guys get on the radar of David, Emily Bessler? Well, like, what was that process? Like a miracle angel. Yeah. I would like, so we, we appreciate and understand how difficult it is to get noticed in this business. And we, we are, um, we, we, we really, you know, particularly coming from filler fest and talking to a lot of people, how,

[00:09:25] you know, the, how the normal journey, the normal journey is. And, and, you know, we certainly don't want to disrespect or, you know, not, um, uh, feel really appreciative of how our journey was. So, so we finished this book and I have two brothers. I don't know if you have any brothers.

[00:09:49] So, so I sent it to my, my older brother who's, you know, 63. Right. And, uh, and he calls me up. He's like, oh my God, you idiot. How did you do this? You're such a dope. You know, like brothers do. Right. Right.

[00:10:04] Right. I'm like, right. He's awesome. Right. He was, and he was anybody, he's been an incredible advocate, him and his wife of this, of this journey. So he, he's like, I want to send it to a buddy of mine. I'm like, sure. Anyone could read it. Cause you know, I was actually also thinking that when, like when I was growing up in the late seventies and eighties, you'd like, you build a model airplane and you wouldn't really want to, once you finished it, you didn't really have anything to do with it. It would just like sit on your desk for a while until you set it on fire, basically throughout the window.

[00:10:34] But, but so, so, so this guy that my brother sent it to a guy named Lee Eastman, he knew somebody at CAA just, and so Lee sent it to somebody at CAA, the agency. Okay. Without having read it. Without having read it. He's basically like, dude, this like, this guy's brother read a book and his wife and we're just, you know, I'm supposed to give it to you. Right. Sorry. Dot, dot, dot. Right. It's like, sorry. I'm putting you through this. So the CAA contact sent it to someone who traffics in.

[00:11:05] Yeah. And then we got a thriller is a guy named Anthony, the tarot, the tarot, the tarot. And he just, one morning I get it. We get an email. My name is Anthony. I love your book. I want to represent you. You like to make a long story. I was like, Oh my God, this is unbelievable. And then a month later, Ed only bought the, bought two books. Actually, we have a two book deal with Simon and Schuster. Awesome. Congratulations. Thank you.

[00:11:31] Yeah. It was very, again, understanding other people. We can't, we were just. It's very unexpected and. Yeah. We're, we're, we're. We owe somebody big somewhere. You know, again, we do. It's coming. You know, there's. We've interviewed a host of, of different, you know, people that have gone different routes and inevitably there's going to be someone that, you know, writes a masterpiece and gets, you know, there are some, the right person's eyes on it.

[00:12:01] And hey, you know, it happened to you guys. I don't feel sorry for it. Embrace it. You know, you guys are in this moment and, you know, I'm excited to read the book. I haven't read the book. We want, I want to talk to you a little bit about, you know, give us some non spoiler re you know, stuff about it. But, you know, I think it's, this game is, is, it's, it's crazy, you know, just the one in a million type things. And Hey, when you have it, ride those coattails. So, right.

[00:12:28] I mean, I, you know, we do know that, you know, Vince Flynn couldn't sell his first book. No, he was selling it out of the back of his, uh, out of his car. We already done it. Right. I've done that. Dan Brown, very, you know, he says, I sold six. He wrote this first book. He wrote what's called Digital Fortress. Yeah. I love that book too. Yeah. Great book. He said he sold six of them and two of them to his mother. In fairness, Bill's mom has already bought five of them. Exactly. Hey, there you go. Right.

[00:12:55] So we, we appreciate, you know, how lucky that is. Yeah. Yeah. Gotcha. So as you begin this, uh, publicity tour, like, what are you guys, um, you know, most looking forward to most nervous about, like, you know, what, what is David going to put you there? Well, it's, we just actually, we're talking about it today and there, you know, we're not doing like a traditional, um, like they're not sending us on a book tour, but we are going to be going to accept.

[00:13:24] I will say at Thriller Fest, we were again, just feel so, so lucky. Um, we were able to sit at Emily Bessler's table at the banquet and because Barbara Peters was being honored, she sat next to us. And we really, we got to actually just hang out and talk with her and, you know, being new to this whole journey and new to this whole world. If you had told me like, Barbara Peters, I'd be like, yeah, okay. What, you know, that's, oh, that's nice. She has a book story. Oh.

[00:13:52] And then talking to her, I was so, and I think, uh, she wouldn't agree. Like, I was just blown away by this person who has created this whole world and has put so much of herself into championing this world. And out of her bookstore, you know, essentially. So, um, so that would be, that was the highlight. I don't know if it is going, if we're going to be able to do anything with her, but I know that just, I don't know, meeting her and, and getting a taste of that world, I thought

[00:14:21] was super exciting. Yeah. Um, I was, I was, you know, I think, you know, you know, I don't know, she's 85 or 86 years old. Like what an incredible woman. Um, so that was, that was, that was, and then Jack Carr was sitting next to her. So I found out a little bit with him, which a little embarrassing. I left Phil alone for like three seconds. And I come back and he's like, Oh my God, this is what'd you say? I'm like, Oh, I was like, you know, but he, he could have been nicer.

[00:14:49] I was like, Oh, Jack, you're, you know, I, I've read all your books. He's like, Oh, you know, he's like, thank you for saying that. And then I was like, you know, all of them, he was like, you said that already. He's like, he's like, why don't you sit down and we can talk. Welcome to the club. Yeah. No, that's been honestly the most, um, surprising thing to me is this, how nice this community is.

[00:15:14] You know, I like how, you know, we're just two, two schmucks who started a podcast during COVID. We both love Vince Flynn. Um, and it's exploded, you know, modestly into, you know, what this is. Um, and, you know, David's been kind to, you know, get us in front of people like you guys. Uh, obviously we're able to talk to, so I haven't had Mark Greaney on. I want, he, he says he's too busy, but you know, um, we've been able to talk to a lot of our, you know, idols.

[00:15:42] Um, not only about like their books, but about like stuff they like, you know, just people are willing to give their time. And it's kind of crazy to me that people are willing to do that. Um, so yeah, it's been, it's been a great community. And then we've also like been able to, you know, some independent authors that, you know, we are supporting, uh, you know, in the, they're in our, uh, club, I guess if you want to call it, uh, it's just been nice to have this, uh, book community to talk to people.

[00:16:08] Cause I feel like the thriller genre, like this genre, like there's, there's a lot of people that read it, but I don't find a lot of content out there where people are like actively discussing it. Whereas like the, you know, the Harry, Harry Potters of the world, the, the, these large, uh, you know, game of Thrones have all these podcasts, all this, you know, dedication to it. And these books are just as good and neat. Like, but, and there's, I know there's an urge for people to want to talk about it, talk about it.

[00:16:36] And we just, you know, need to build it up a little bit more. So nice. Yeah. Nice. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we're happy to be part of it. We're so happy to be part of it. Yeah. So what talking about pivoting to your book? Um, all right. So it, I'm going to read the little blurb. It says on a real books by, you know, beyond honor blends espionage, political intrigue and action. So, you know, what sparked this? Like, and you mentioned you read this book from your son. Is it, is it, did that spark any of it or is it something?

[00:17:06] No, no, no. We read his book. Bill wrote the book. Our son and I read it. So Bill, Oh, sorry. I got the draft and handed it to our son. And my son and I were the first two readers and we were the ones who were really surprised. Um, I misread that. I thought your son also had a book and you had like another book coming. By the way, everybody seemed to be very surprised, which is, you know, my, my, my mother, my mother, like, I can't believe you did this. I'm like, Oh mom, that's really nice to say. She's like, no, of the three boys, I can't believe you did this.

[00:17:37] I'm like, I'm like, okay. Okay. Call your reading to the map. Pump the brakes. Pump the brakes on that. I mean, she's almost 90. You know, I was like, right. So, you know, we, I, so I, you know, there's so many little sub genres within the thriller genre. And, you know, I think that there's been a movement towards, you know, very high action, which I, which I love those books, right?

[00:18:04] Like the Jack Carr books are incredible and the Mark Graney, Gray Man series is incredible. But, you know, I, when I was kind of coming, you know, when I was reading these as a kid, the Ludlams of the world and the David Morels of the world, certainly the Tom Clancy. And I'm not suggesting that our book is anywhere, you know, near these guys books, but, but, you know, those books were, they kind of pump the brakes a little bit more than the more modern

[00:18:32] versions of, of where the genre is going. And so we, the book that we constructed, I think is a throwback. And I think some of these, these very generous reviews, these pre-reviews that we've gotten, which are just incredibly surprising, just so incredible to read, recognize that it's a little bit of a throwback to those authors who, who were kind of like the base of this genre.

[00:18:58] So the, the idea kind of spurred from, you know, I just had this idea that there's this like sleazy Russian agent in the hotel and some fancy hotel in Moscow recording people, you know, sinning in the hotel rooms and using that as compromise to exploit something. And then he, and it was just kind of a sad state of affairs for this guy in the basement, you know, recording these videos.

[00:19:26] And then, and then I was like, oh, I wonder, maybe his father is a Russian general and he doesn't like his son, you know, all of a sudden it just kind of, and I have read that some authors outline and kind of know the beginning, the middle, they, they kind of outline each chapter. And this book kind of just organically grew into a mosaic of about five different stories that seem unrelated in the first half of the book.

[00:19:55] And they all kind of like come together in the, in the middle to the end of the book. And then there's a kind of like a sprint to the end as you know, which is kind of a typical thing in that genre. Hallmark. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's cool. I think, yeah, I've definitely noticed as, even if you take like a, you know, a tome that has Brad Thorpe, for instance, when we just completed his entire arc, 23, 25 books.

[00:20:23] And when you look at the beginning versus like how he's transitioned to now, you can definitely see this shift in thriller writing into being way more quick pace, you know, small chapters. You know, even like the book lengths have gotten significantly shorter than like, you know, some of the early, like, obviously the Ludlums and the, you know. With the Tom Clancy's who take up like six. Yeah, the Tom Clancy's. Yeah, exactly. Um, but we have had these little one-offs, you know, the David McCloskey's of the world.

[00:20:53] Um, yeah, that's huge. The print is probably really small. Um, it is right. Exactly. I asked Barry with Peacock and the Sparrow. And so I like, we know that there's definitely a intrigue for wanting to get back to those roots by putting like a modern spin on it. So I'm excited to that you guys decided to go down that route. I mean, I think that's really- Because while blowing up everything is nice, but you know, sometimes we want- The thing for me too is like, I, Bill will often like hand me a book and be like, this

[00:21:23] one was great. You have to read this. And sometimes I agree. And sometimes I get halfway through it and I'm sure it's great, but it's not great for me. And I really, you know, I'm so intrigued by the characters. And when I see these like, you know, sort of superhero special forces people, I, I have all these questions, you know, what are they really like? And what is it like when they, when they go home at night and what's, you know, and, and just talking to real people, you, you know, you know that there is so much more beyond that.

[00:21:52] So we were really excited also to just kind of like explore that almost out of, I would say, and I don't want to speak for you, but in many ways, just out of respect for, for all of these people to just sort of acknowledge you aren't superheroes. There's, you have, it's, it's more impressive that you're actually a real person. And so we, we tried to like dig into that a little bit as well. I think we, I think so. I think we dug into that a lot.

[00:22:17] So we, we wrote, it's basically a trilogy and we have three books on, on paper. And so the first book explores, and it starts with an Ernest Hemingway quote about what makes someone very special could, could be their fault. Like someone who's very loyal or someone who's very dedicated. It, you know, you could kind of see how that could be a flaw. So we, we kind of explored honor and vengeance.

[00:22:46] And the second book kind of explores the reckoning of what happens with all, when you, when you, when you're forced to do things that are beyond honor, you know? And the third book is about then accepting who you are. You're just going all the way to the end. Why is that too much? Is that too much? Spoiler alert. This is like how we wrote the first book. Right, right, right. So, so, and I, and I do think to Karen's point, it comes from talking to a lot of people

[00:23:14] and listening to a lot of things, um, and reading, you know, all these books, um, nonfiction as well as, you know, nonfiction to get really a, a sense of, you know, when these warriors talk about their experience, you know, they, they do talk about what, you know, like the battle, the event, but more of it is about the experience and the brother, you know, their,

[00:23:40] their brothers and the, the loss and, you know, what it put them through and what it did to their family. And so, you know, in this mosaic, it did, you know, we tried to explore, um, the fallout, you know, not there's, there's action of course, but, but the fallout and the relationships and not just in, on the battlefield, but like in, in within the office space, like in the CIA or in the white house.

[00:24:10] Right. Would you say that? Right. Yeah. Yeah. So it's like, there's, there's pacing. It's still really fun. No, it's super fun, but it's, but it's, you know, it's a throwback. It's, you know, you know, I was thinking like the, like this very, this classic book, the brotherhood of the rose. Do you see that backwards by the way? Is that backwards or forwards to you? It's forwards for me. Okay, good. Um, like this real, like David Morell, this is a classic and it starts in a monastery with

[00:24:38] an assassin in a jail cell that he's put himself in the cell for, you know, a year or so. And he has, and it really takes his time to build this character. And it's, and so we kind of thought about those books as we were writing this book. I see that you guys are definitely two different people. You kind of have this like nice, uh, you know, different, uh, yin and yang mentality. What do you think each of you brings better or brings to the table with this, you know, co-writing, um, experience?

[00:25:07] I think like we, you know, Bill for the, his, like his superpower, superpower is crafting the, is crafting the actual story. Like he, I, I am just really in awe of that. And then I think what I bring to the table and you can answer to after, but I think what I bring to the table is, um, more, I, I, I feel so, um, really strongly that if you're going to ask somebody to read your book, it better be well-written and you better like

[00:25:36] spend some time and Bill handed me one book, no idea what it was, but a while back. And I remember I got like four pages in and I was like, the guy said red leather couch three times in one paragraph. Like you can't find another word for red leather couch. You know, I'm like, I'm out. And I really think I, I feel really strongly that the characters have to, every motivation has to make sense. There can't be holes there that it has to be well-written. Um, it has to be an enjoy, like the process of spending time with this book should be really

[00:26:05] enjoyable and you should. And so I think we, we both have these things that like, we really care strongly about. And then we appreciate that, I guess. And she says, don't take ambient before I curtail his drug habit. Well, Kara, I have to say you're, um, if we need a third chair, I think you are one of us. You are a real no limits person. Cause that is exactly what me and Mike are like. Um, so, you know, if the book deal falls out and you, you want to, you want to join a podcast,

[00:26:35] you have a spot. Um, so like, how do you guys deal with, you know, you mentioned a little bit about, uh, the notes and stuff, but how do you, how did you deal with, uh, someone, you know, disagreements or someone that felt really strongly about something or a character? I mean, we didn't, I think we were on the same page and I don't think we really had disagreements. I think we each, do we have disagreements? We did. You guys disagree about that? What did we disagree about?

[00:27:04] I can't, I can't put my finger on it by, by the second we hang up, I'll think of it. No, but if, if we disagreed, we would just kind of battle it out. And I will say this to your point about us being a little bit different. So in our family, if we go see a movie, we walk out and everyone will be like, yeah, that was fun. And everyone wants to enjoy the fact that they saw this movie. And I'm like, here's what was wrong with that movie. And I love just pulling it, but I'm enjoying it, but I really do like taking it apart. And so my name in our family is Buzzkill.

[00:27:33] So I think we would have, there've been Buzzkill examples. You're sharing too much. No, this is, this is great. I think I would say that when, when it comes to this book, like I would be so excited to push back, like, I'll be like, why, but why is this happening? And this doesn't make any sense. And, and Bill would say, no, it makes sense. And here's why. And I'm like, no. And, and I, I do think what we ended up with is that, you know, it's, it's an, it's the,

[00:28:01] the, the journey that the characters take, you know, is believable because every little move is believable. And I think Karen really helped that so that it wasn't like, you know, at one point there's like something and a magic wand made it happy. Like there, like everything, I think as you're going through this, the pages, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're taken from Washington to Russia, to Ukraine, to Siberia, to Alaska.

[00:28:30] And while that's an, you know, that, that's a lot of journey, but every little point in that journey is, is, is, is constructed in a believable way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Nice. I agree. Right. And actually one of the, I don't want to give away what happens in the book, but one of the, um, one of the big events that happens in the book happens towards the middle of the

[00:28:59] book and some of the feedback we got at the beginning when we were kind of sharing an initial draft was, you know, why don't you take that big, exciting thing, big, exciting thing and put it at like on the page one. And we were very, um, passionate about the reason why it's such a big, exciting thing. It isn't because, because, because you get to know the characters, you get to understand

[00:29:26] their motivation and you get, you have a, you know, kind of a relationship with them. And if it just happened with the first page, you, it wouldn't be this big, exciting thing. Right. And so we, we pushed back on that. We'll discuss that next time. We'll discuss it. Yeah. All right. Okay. No, no, no. I, I feel that because sometimes it's, you know, it's a flash in the pan. It's like a, you know, a clickbait. If you want to, you know, call it like ask type thing, a hook.

[00:29:52] Um, but you know, if you put in the time and the work, then it could definitely work better that way. Yeah. I guess, you know, as you guys getting in this space, you know, as new readers are getting to learn, you guys, what do you want them to most take away from this first novel of yours? I, I certainly, I would say that the, the, the main characters are based on real people,

[00:30:18] people that either we've talked to or people that we have, um, listened to that, that, the, that, that, that these struggles and their, their emotional arc is real. Maybe not the story because the story is made up, but I think that the. Maybe realistic. It's really right. But the emotional arcs, I think people. I'm again, we haven't sold one book other than my mother. Right.

[00:30:46] So we don't know, but, but I, but I, but I think that you'll, people can relate to like little battles in, in a human life. And like in this book, the worst thing that's going to happen isn't the core of the earth is going to explode and the earth will blow up and our hero has to save the earth. Like that's the stakes are very understandable and very, I think very relatable. You know, in the context of this genre.

[00:31:15] And I think I, hopefully that they, that resonates with them because, um, because the stakes I think are, and I think even in the second and the third book, you know, the stakes don't get so like, why is that okay to say? Slow down, slow down. No, no, no. Well, but the stakes are like, you know, there's, you know, it's, it's, uh, I think when, hopefully when you read the book, you say, Oh, I, I know this person. I understand this person. There's a little bit of me in this person. Okay.

[00:31:43] I mean, me or you, right. And the reader. You want it to be like relatable, something that, you know, while not all of us are spies, but just something that you could believe. Cause not all of us can read, you know, Mark Graney or, you know, believe you're the gray man or that you're, but put in situations that maybe, you know, you, you could relate to, I guess is what you're trying to say. Well, and I love the gray man series and I love the Mark Graney stuff and I've read his other books as well. Um, but this, this, and right.

[00:32:12] But I, I hope that, you know, that those are those, you know, Mark, uh, court gentry is a superhero and he's incredible, you know? And, and so this is, this is a little different. Yeah. Okay. All right. So, um, you know, we always, I want to respect your time. Let you guys go. I didn't even ask where are you guys from? Where, where do you live? Uh, we're in New York city and then New York city. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. How about yourself? Uh, I'm, I live in Pennsylvania, right? Side Philadelphia.

[00:32:42] Um, Mike is, uh, he lives in DC. Uh, we, we met at college in DC, so I'm, I'm from the Northern Virginia area. So I was drawn to this spy world because of all the, uh, is his, well, I'll ask you a question off the air about, no, go ahead. Is his, does it's his profession now and on your podcast as well? His other job. Yeah. He's a, uh, he's a middle school teacher. Cause our kids, our daughter's a middle school teacher in DC also. Oh, small world. What school do you know?

[00:33:10] Oh, it's not Cardozo. She was at Cardozo. She just, she just moved schools. She just changed schools. She was at Cardozo and now she's at a different one. Right. Okay. All right. We're going to email you so you can tell Mike where she is. Yeah. Uh, it sounds good. Sounds good. Well, we like to end this podcast by asking, uh, what is the last great thing you guys have read? Can you, or seen, can you guys share that with us for, you know, our, our listeners? No, no, you go first. Cause I have to think about it.

[00:33:37] So I think one of the, well, you know, I love seen. I just saw Hail Mary. Um, what do you think? That was so much fun. Ryan Gosling is incredible. Uh, that was just a super fun movie. And I read the book and obviously the Martian and Artemis three or Artemis I read. Um, but I thought that was really fun thing to see. And I did read a really terrific book called, uh, uh, duet in Beirut, which is written by someone from the Mossad.

[00:34:07] It was, it's a fiction book and it was just a really nuanced thriller. I'll email it to you. Um, and it was just really well done. That was that, that one I read recently and that was, that was just a really great read. It was surprisingly good. Yeah. Um, I had to look up the author's names. They couldn't remember. Her name is Catherine Farr Morris. Have you ultra luminous? Do you know that book? No, it's, uh, um, it's short and, um, I loved it. Uh, very tight story.

[00:34:38] Um, she's a, she's a prostitute. She has five clients and, um, you're just in her head in these little snippets. It's, it's really, it's very cool. Yeah. A little dark. Cool. I'll have to check it out. All right. Well, we're going to have you guys back. Um, obviously when we get closer to pub day, we'll talk about, you know, your path towards it. Definitely want to get into talking to you more about this book, the spoilers.

[00:35:07] Um, in the meantime, obviously we can pre-order your book on Amazon, right? Yes. Or any bookstore. Pre-orders, pre-orders, pre-orders, or any bookstore. We'll support your local bookstore, including the Poison Pen. Um, so yeah, thank you guys very much. This was great. Thank you so much. We really appreciate it. And I hope you like the book because that would be humiliating. No, but we really, we really appreciate you taking the time and spending time with us.

[00:35:34] And if we're on different screens the next time, obviously this didn't work out. All right. That's all good. Oh, oh, this didn't work out. Yeah. I hope not. I hope not. Um, yeah, no, I'm a super, anything that David, you know, I, I try to do it. I trust David. Um, I trust Ryan Steck as well. Um, so, you know, we wouldn't, we wouldn't be having you guys. Mike's already started reading it. He said it's very good. So, uh, and I, obviously I trust him too. So, well, thank you very much. We really appreciate it. Thank you, Chris.