Is James Reece being replaced? Jack Carr talks The Fourth Option (NO SPOILERS)

[00:00:10] You know you're moving up in the world when you're on Hannity last night and tonight you're with us. So, hey, definitely moving up. It was Newsmax first, then Hannity, and then Katie Pavlich tonight all in a row. And of course, like the ceasefire drops like as I'm going on and I'm like, what? Ceasefire? They ask you to comment. It's live. I'm not good at that. I don't know why you ask me back on that stuff. It's not my thing. Yeah, it's usually better to wait and let all the information come out before you start commenting on everything.

[00:00:38] So yeah, I don't even like soundbite media. You know, it's not a it's not a comfortable format for me to discuss anything. Yeah, I just get too nervous and people some people are good at it. Some people are smooth. I'll never be smooth at anything. But that's not my preferred format. But David Brown keeps signing me up for that stuff. Well, when are you gonna be back on Rogan? Because your long forms on Rogan have been awesome. Oh, thank you. Thank you. It's not this time. So I was just there this last, you know, in October.

[00:01:07] So like two within a year is kind of a lot to ask for. So I'm gonna hold off, you know, well, you never know if he invited back or not, you know, so now for next James reason. Thing is, I put your name in a few comments just on the socials when Sean Ryan drops, who should I have on as a guest? And every time I put you in the comments, it blows up. People start liking that, commenting on that. You have any contact there? Is that any sort of overlap in your two worlds?

[00:01:31] You know, it's weird. No, I didn't know him in the teams or anything like that. And, and, yeah, I was gonna go have dinner with him. And I actually went out to, to, to Nashville, and just to link up and, you know, kind of have a good to know each other dinner type of a thing. And then he canceled at the last second, which I kind of expected. So I planned it around going to Safari Club International at the same time.

[00:01:54] So I was there. It actually worked out better. So, you know, it's kind of a different thing that he does. You know, I'm not like a, I don't know, not the right kind of guest for that show. I don't think it's not by, I don't think. You know what I mean? I don't have any sob stories. I'm not going to get on there. I don't know. It's just, I'm not going to get all emotional. He likes the explosive, like the shock factor. A lot of his interviews go for like the shock factor where Joe is just like, let's just talk and get to know each other and bring up some cool shit. Exactly. Much more that than, than the other. Yeah.

[00:02:21] Tyler, did you read this from the galley copy or did you read a PDF? I got the PDF and printed it and made notes.

[00:02:29] Oh, nice. Cause this is a rock draft still. So this is like, this is my first pass and there's three other passes after that. And, uh, and so I hate giving these things out. So I don't give any out, but David Brown, I know, sneaks them out there against my wishes. Uh, he violates orders and get these, that gets these out there. Um, and, uh, so I'm curious cause there are some things that, uh, that are different in PDF that you have the final version, uh, versus the galley. I'm glad you read the PDF and not the, uh, not the galley.

[00:02:58] Yeah. I wanted to underline stuff and make notes in the margins and things like that. So I printed it out, double-sided and threw it in a three ring binder. And I've been carrying it around for me for a couple of weeks and keeping it to myself. And it's been taking up all my spare time. So. Thank you. Oh, thank you. He honored that command because he gave us the option. He said, you want these galleys, which are pre-edited or, you know, pre-final draft, or do you want the PDF, which is the one that's going to be printed?

[00:03:22] And so he gave us that choice. We wanted the final copy. And you talking about that has actually shifted my mindset because I've always been excited to get arcs, but then I get a little disappointed when I see typos and spelling errors and it leaves me wanting for the final thing. And then I have to go out and buy it anyway, cause I'm going to do that, of course, but I have noticed this difference. And I don't know if I would have been as in tune if I didn't hear you talking about that.

[00:03:44] So you kind of, but I like people want to collect them or something like that. You know, that's kind of, that's kind of cool. Like I, you know, I keep one or a box set aside. But, but yeah, I don't like that anything out there that is not the best that can possibly be. So I'm just not into that. Well, Tyler just finished that copy and I wanted to ask him, this is not a James Reece book. And so we're going to hear from Jack a lot about that transition to writing outside the world and even going into the co-authored space.

[00:04:10] But Tyler, as the top 1% super fan, you know, everything there is about Jack Carr, James Reece, the terminalist universe. How did you feel coming off of this book? And did you feel it was still a Jack Carr book? Yeah, I feel like, uh, I don't know about the 1%, top 1%, but, uh, I think this book was, was really good. I think the best way I could describe it is that it feels like a Jack Carr novel. It has all of the methods that are like pretty evident in your other books.

[00:04:40] You know, when you describe characters and do character and world building through like gear and, and a lot of the environment and things like that, that I really enjoy. And I think that, uh, it definitely feels like one of your books, but going into it, one thing I didn't want to, I was hoping that it wouldn't do is that I could interchange Chris Walker with James Reece. And it absolutely cannot happen. And I, I really am happy that it's that way. I really like the environment and we can, uh, get into a lot of the other details that don't spoil anything.

[00:05:10] And then maybe later on, we'll talk about a lot of the, uh, specific events that are pretty fun and, and, and incredible in this book. So I thought that it was really good coming off of it. It feels like a Jack Carr book. It's it, it just fits on the shelf with the rest of your novels. In my opinion, uh, it's just a, something going on somewhere else in the country, but it's told from the same, you know, mind pretty much. Thank you. You guys have that underlying foundation of authenticity. Cause that's just a part of the odd for me not to do that.

[00:05:37] But, uh, so for me, it's not, it's not a strange to have a character that is, uh, has the same background as another character in a totally different universe. So it's not strange for me to have a Navy SEAL who also has a touch point with the CIA, uh, in this book and in the James Reece terminalist series, uh, because having come from that universe, uh, in real life, everybody there is different. So we're all bringing our backgrounds up until that point. Um, and, uh, then we have a shared experience in buds and SEAL training and, uh, then a SEAL qualification training or SEAL tactical training.

[00:06:07] And then through our first platoons going through the workup. So we have a, uh, there's something in common, but we're coming from different places across the country. We're coming from some guys have never seen the ocean before. Some guys grew up on the ocean. Some guys are from inner city. Some guys are from Appalachia and the mountains. Like everybody's bringing this, that just different backgrounds to our current problem set. And I think that's really made us, uh, after the war on terror kicked off after 2001, um, we really got, it really allowed us to adapt to a changing environment on the battlefield because of all that diversity and the backgrounds of the people.

[00:06:37] That showed up. It's not like a cookie cutter. And I've got some of the misconceptions that people have in the outside looking in without a touch point with military is that, oh, you go to bootcamp and you get reprogrammed and everybody's kind of a cookie cutter person, especially in special operations. If you're just getting, you know, things from popular culture, I guess, uh, from, from movies. But for me, like everybody was so different in all my platoons and all those two over all those 20 years. So it's not odd for me, but I also wanted to be, I was very cognizant of the fact that I wanted, did not want anybody to say, oh, you just changed the name of James Reese to have this new thing.

[00:07:07] Uh, so James Reese, obviously family man, Chris Walker, orphan, um, and, uh, you know, philosopher and, uh, about to end his life for different, for these different reasons. And so I've wanted to make sure that, uh, those characters were, uh, were differentiated for, for readers.

[00:07:24] Yeah, I think it really comes across that way. And I think it's differentiated in a very good way. Um, they're, they're, they're dissimilar enough in the areas that matter, but they're also similar where it matters. You know, they both care about justice is, is one of their drives for their stories. And I think that comes across pretty, pretty clearly, but it, there's no way to blur the two. There's very little that they have way more not in common than they do in common.

[00:07:49] And so I think, uh, a lot of it works really well throughout the book to differentiate him from James. So thank you. Thank you. I have some other, some other universes, uh, some other, uh, books out there that are in, uh, treatment form right now. And, you know, just looking for the right time to, to dive in on those, but there are books in the future that don't feature a Navy SEAL CIA protagonist. So, uh, so I have one in particular, that's top of mind that, uh, I think I'm going to try to, maybe it'll be the next, next one.

[00:08:19] Um, next, uh, series that I, that I kick off or might be another one in between, but, uh, we'll see. We'll see. It depends on a few other factors out there. Awesome. You just need more. Any other. Yeah. Yeah. You need more to do. It's a little crazy. Um, I was curious, uh, you know, I thought that, uh, you know, you coauthoring this with MP Woodward was worked out really well. I liked your, uh, you know, your stuff you had to say about them in the back of the book and everything was really awesome.

[00:08:47] I was curious if like, do you know, if you're going to continue to coauthor, what Simon and Schuster think about this product so far without spoiling it, obviously at this point, but, um, do you think you'll continue down the coauthor path? And if so, would it still stick with MP?

[00:09:03] Well, I'm going to use for the other series out until all the kids are out of the house and I have a little more time on my hands. Like Grisham can pull off to a year. Uh, Michael Connelly can pull off to a year, but I think that's because their kids are older and out of the house. Uh, so I'm not quite there yet. So I have, it's hard for me to do one a year, especially with cry havoc and all the, all the research that it took to do that, to research a book that takes place in 1968. That was so much more, as we've talked about before.

[00:09:26] Uh, was so, it took so much longer than I anticipated at the outset and really put me, put me behind in a lot of other projects, but, uh, but it had to be the best, you know, I can't let anything get out there. That's not the best that I can possibly do at the time.

[00:09:38] So it's just going to take however long it takes. Um, so this series, my plan is anyway, I mean, I'd love to write it on my own, but, uh, I don't think there is time for that right now. And I have all these ideas that I want to, that I want to get out there. Like I'm never going to run out of ideas. Uh, the world keeps giving them to me. I have already a bunch in the bank. Uh, so, so I want to get these things out there. So, um, and that's that Tom Clancy model, you know, me reading Hunt for Red October and Restaurant Rising and Patriot Games and Cardinal of the Kremlin. And then the early nineties, him branching out into the nonfiction side with, uh, the guided tour series.

[00:10:08] And a study of command series. And then he had the ops center, which kicks off with the book. And I think it was an NBC miniseries with Harry Antwin. Uh, that thing kicks off right there. Uh, and then he did some other ones, obviously, uh, power plays, net force, you know, that's that sort of thing. So that was like my model, like a modernized version of that. Um, with my underlying foundation of authenticity. Like I can't just put my name on something and anybody who, uh, who picks this up and reads it will, uh, it'll be very clear to them that that's not the, not the case, but, uh, answer your question.

[00:10:38] Continue this series as a co-written series. Um, but, uh, MP Woodward has a whole bunch of other things on his plate right now. He's writing the Clancy universe. I think he has three, uh, I don't know what, I don't know what it means for what he has coming out. So he has a bunch of projects, uh, in the books on the books for him.

[00:10:53] So, uh, I don't think the next one will be co-written with him, but it will be probably co-written with somebody else just because I don't have time to dive in right now. I have to stay focused on the James Reese terminal list series, James Reese eight for next year. And then the targeted next in the targeted series should come out early 2027 as well. So those, at least those two on the books for next year. Um, and, uh, and then we have, uh, true believer terminal list season two coming out in the final stages of post-production. So that should be before the end of the year. Don't have anything concrete on that yet, but it should be before the end of the year. Um, and so there's

[00:11:23] all sorts of, all sorts of projects out there. So once again, a very long way of saying that, uh, Chris Walker series here, the fourth option series will continue. Uh, and I think it'll, or it'll be a co-written, um, book for the next one in this series as well, but I already know where exactly where he's going. And, uh, and the whole, I got it all mapped out. So, uh, ready to get going on it. Awesome. It's like, like a Marvel movie. Chris Walker will return. Chris Walker will return. Exactly. Exactly.

[00:11:48] You know what, Mike, it's funny you say that I was, I was talking with, uh, one of my family members about this book earlier because, um, I introduced him to the terminal list series and he he's read through those as well and has his own set set and everything that I, that I got him. And so we were just discussing this and, um, the way, the best way I could compare it is that James Reece is a lot like Iron Man in that those books have a lot more at risk countries at risk.

[00:12:14] He's traveling the globe and he's super likable. There's just more at stake. The, the scope of work is much larger with Chris Walker. He's more like the, the daredevil series where it's ground street level crime, more in the gutter and less at risk, but it's more grounded and realistic feeling. So I think that's a, if you're in, into the Marvel stuff, if you're watching, that's a great way to compare them.

[00:12:38] That's fantastic. I'm so glad you said that because that's exactly what I wanted to do. And, you know, most of the James Reese terminal list series books, there's some, uh, you know, global, there are global stakes, uh, there are geopolitics involved in it. Not all of them, most of them. Um, and, uh, and so I want to differentiate this from that, uh, in every one of these books. I want this, every one of these books, it's a new stranger comes to town. Well, same stranger, new town. Uh, I don't want to choose New Orleans for this first one, just because I'd been there twice in the seal teams. And I always wanted to base a novel there.

[00:13:07] And it made sense to do this one. So every single book, every single Chris Walker story, he'll come to a new city, a new town. That'll be the backdrop for that. Um, and it'd be a very vibrant city, very vibrant town, but, uh, localized domestic. Um, so not global stakes, but exactly like you said, right there. So, uh, more of like an investigator, more of a 1980s, uh, uh, equalizer type of a, uh, character, except not in a new one. Every time. He has a gun and he will travel as you would probably say.

[00:13:37] Gun will travel. Exactly. It's the inspiration for this game from the 1950s, 1960s television show that I used to watch with my dad. And, uh, it was a radio show before that actually. And, uh, so this is my modern interpretation of that show. And then of other ones, of course, like Pale Rider and Magnificent Seven and High Plains Drifter. Um, and, uh, so it, it, it, Shane. So it has all those elements as well. Uh, just my modern, my modern take on it.

[00:14:03] Yeah. And I like what you were saying about the globe trotting business of it all, because we've on the podcast read and reviewed over 150 books probably at this point. And we started to see trends and maybe soon we'll do like a trends analysis, uh, being five years into this project.

[00:14:19] Your book seemed to hit on most of the things that we keep coming back to as reoccurring themes that we love. Whereas the globe trotting can go too far when it's for globe trotting sake. And now this book really particularizes us into New Orleans, gives us one setting. It feels like home base. The characters pulled into it. We as the audience are sucked into it. That's really nice when you can live and breathe in that, in that one city, that one space. Like Dan Brown's most recent book was the Prague book. And then we went back recently to Angels and Demons. It was the Rome book. It was all in Rome.

[00:14:48] Um, so it's good to hear Chris Walker might kind of have that flair moving forward. Just, just pulled into another city and a full expose on it. Okay. Yep. Exactly. That's my different from James Reese as well.

[00:14:59] Yeah. And, uh, exactly. And he's, cause I was still wanting to differentiate those characters, differentiate the series. I never want someone to say, Oh, I don't know if this is, was that a, was that a James Reese book or a Chris Walker book? I never want that to ever be even a question. That'll be so different. And so, so separate, but instead of getting on a horse and going to the new town, it's, uh, Chris Walker loads up the Volkswagen bus pop top camper and jumps in there with his, uh, loyal Belgian Malinois. And, uh, and off they go to the next town.

[00:15:29] And he started this book exactly how it would continue and how he'd get these new, uh, missions requests going forward, how people would contact him. Um, what did he get in return? Like all of that was all mapped out before I even started. So I'm really excited to dive into that. The how in the next book is for him. Like I know, but for him, he doesn't quite know yet where this book ends up. Uh, but in the next one, that'll solidify. And that'll be essentially the model, uh, going forward for how he gets to from, from town to town and does what he does.

[00:15:56] No, I was just going to follow up on that because another thing that we noticed over time is if an author relies on the same trope. And so it's like, let's have, you have a friend calling in an old favor or in this case, a family member calling in an old favor. And, you know, it's the same thing that gets you out of bed and gets you on the mission. So what's that challenge going to be like having to anticipate the next thing that gets the audience to believe Chris Walker would have to do this, would have to be pulled in, would be

[00:16:20] motivated enough to get his hands dirty, but at the same time, not relying on the same formula of you got a phone call, you know, or there's the cotton Malone series, which we love. Oh, he starts with a fire. You know, there's a fire somewhere. Dan Brown or Robert Langdon, he's swimming in his pool and he gets the phone call. Like you have to have that through line. So it has to feel familiar, but you got to do it differently. So are you mapping that out? You know, a few books ahead, different ways you could do that.

[00:16:44] Well, but I'm mapping out the model. I knew that before I started, I want to, what I wanted to lead to, and maybe I should have left it a little more clear. I don't know. I, you know, can't change it. Can't change it now. But, uh, uh, I left it with enough of, because maybe I'm so intimately involved with it. Like it's obvious to me how it's going to go, but I don't think it really matters for the reader because it'll solidify in the next one. I become very clear to the reader, uh, how this is going to move going forward. So, um, so yeah, I'm excited for this, this series. It's right. It's a, it's a, it's a cool one. There's lots of, lots of explore. And then I don't feel like, um, you know,

[00:17:13] I haven't felt like it's the James Reese terminalist series, but it's, but I know that it's, that it, but it's there. I don't worry about it. I don't waste bandwidth on it, but it's like, how do you save the world again? Type of a thing. How do you have this other conspiracy? Like, like those sorts of things that people will love and expect. But, um, so when I started the terminalist series, I was, I was thinking like, Hey, I'm going to go from personal to, you know, huge geopolitical stakes back to personal back to huge. So I was kind of going to go back and forth. It didn't really work out that way because of just the way that, that, uh, the story naturally progressed over the course of those seven,

[00:17:43] seven books, but, uh, but that was my, but at the beginning, I was thinking about that and wanting to have the personal and the geopolitical, but separate. And then it kind of, they morphed together as I, as I got through that, uh, into that third book and then into the fourth from, and going on from there. So, um, I guess I haven't been enough. There's not like 30 or 40 of them, you know, so I haven't had to worry too much about it, but, uh, but it, it's there. How do you make it different every single time? Uh, how do you make it natural every single time? Uh, how do you not repeat things like all, all of that, like it's back there, but I don't dwell on it. Cause I just focus, Hey, whatever

[00:18:13] this one is, I'm just going to focus on the story, make it the best I possibly can. And, uh, same thing with, with all my writing. I thought, uh, the absolute star of the book and the parts that I kind of like either grinned or chuckled the most at, uh, was just your descriptions that involved paladin. A lot of the paladin scenes. I know you talked about, uh, you know, you had somebody that you were talking with that has a Belgian Malinois. That was your resource for it. Um, and for all the, that content.

[00:18:40] And I think it, uh, it came across really well. And even, even something as simple as like, he got left in the van while Chris went in somewhere and he's coming back and you have in there, the paladin thumps his tail on the seat and approval and stuff like that was, was enough to like, kind of, because I have two dogs. Well, I have, I have one now that he's a German shepherd husky mix. And, and so like living with a dog every day for all my life, pretty much, you know, um, it's awesome to see those, those characteristics and the small, small little details like that.

[00:19:10] Like whenever, uh, they, you know, Chris asks for water and, uh, can, can, can he have some too in the kitchen? Basically. Um, I thought was just some cool details, but to me, paladin was kind of like the, the, the hidden star of the novel for me. You can ask me another question about paladin when we get to the spoiler section, but, uh, uh, but yeah, John Devine, buddy of mine from steel teams has divine canine out in Southern California. Um, founded rescue 22 foundation as well. Uh, that provides fully trained service and support dogs to veterans dealing with

[00:19:40] the emotional and physical trauma of the battlefield. And so he's my, he's my resource for all that. Uh, and every time I made a change, I'd make sure I send it to him. But of course, any, any, any mistakes are mine and mine alone. But, uh, even up to the end, if I change anything that has to do with like explosive ordnance, disposal stuff, FBI stuff, uh, dog stuff. And I send that to, uh, those guys who are subject matter experts and say, Hey, I changed this. Is this still ring true for someone?

[00:20:03] Who's a dog handler in the military or, uh, local state, federal law enforcement, whatever it might be, or, uh, you know, EOD guys, uh, this ring true for somebody who did your, was in your line of work. Um, and, and that's, cause that's important to me. I don't want someone like that is to get taken out of the story because of a detailed mistake that, uh, that I make in the book. So I'm always, I'm going back and forth with them, uh, a lot more near the end because, you know, things are going to change as I go. And so if I bother them too much at the beginning, then, uh, uh, so I bother them at the beginning.

[00:20:33] And then leave them alone for months and months and months and months. And then when I get near the end and I start making changes, then I go back and forth a few more times just to make sure those details are right. Do you still have the couple that, uh, that, uh, your friends that are a couple to film themselves for the fight scenes and then you describe them? Yeah. I think that was one of the things you had brought up in the past. I thought it was pretty cool. Is that still the case? That is still, still the case. Yep. Yep. Uh, Dylan Murphy, uh, is, is out there and, uh, shouldn't, I won't say where he is, but, uh, he, he, he works through.

[00:21:03] That stuff for me and I'll send him something and, uh, say, does this make, you know, does this make sense? Or, uh, you know, here's the, here's the tool. Here's the weapon, which is right here. Actually, this is the regiment blade. You know, I couldn't just pick another, couldn't have a tomahawk obviously. Oh, nice. That is awesome. You've been carrying that for a while.

[00:21:22] Yeah. Since I got it, since our last call, I ordered it the day after and, uh, Mike and Chris don't know, but they each have, uh, one of these on the way to them when they order ships. So that's awesome. I got, I got them each one as a thank you for always, uh, having me on to interview and chat. So. Oh man, that is awesome. And you're, you have this kind of sheath right here with this, this little setup. I have, I don't know if it'll focus, but I have the one that came with it from, uh, does BCM make regiment?

[00:21:50] Uh, I guess they're, they're either bought them or they, I should probably find out before I actually say this, but there's some connection there. Yeah. I, I, I believe so. So I got the sheath and use the sheath that came with it. I was looking at the low rider that you have. Um, I haven't gotten it yet. So yeah.

[00:22:07] My camera, unfortunately, what, like this thing, I, at first time I got it, I'm like, ah, it kind of seems a little flimsy maybe. And then I started wearing it. This thing legit. I love this thing right here. This is an aftermarket piece or can you get that direct from them? I guess. I don't know. They just, uh, sent this one to me. So I'm not sure. Yeah. That one's like from a third party, I believe, but it is for the regiment, I believe. Right. The low rider. This is from them. Is it? They specialize it. It's the Jack car edition.

[00:22:36] Maybe. I'm going to have to talk to them after this, but yeah, that's, uh, anyway, that's, uh, that's pretty sick played. And, uh, a buddy of mine sent this to me, Mickey shook, who's a carry trainer on the social channels. He needs a, uh, uh, uh, pistol trainer, defensive tactics, all that sort of thing. And, uh, and he sent me one years ago when it was under a different name, I think. Uh, like back, gosh, when I back from terminal list days. And, uh, and then, uh, as I got closer to this book, I was thinking through how important that totem is to have that, that, that, that weapon that's different from, from other people.

[00:23:05] And I was like, gosh, I can't have a tomahawk. I can't just choose a knife. You know, it has to be the Rambo knife of the character. It also has to be something that guys carry the guys that do the job, but you know, it has to be legit. And so that's how I ended up with, uh, with this regiment blade and I started wearing it right away just to make sure that it worked for me. And man, this thing, it is awesome. Yeah. Being that yours is the older version, you have the really cool stainless with wood grips. Mine is all black and then they have a Damascus one too. So you do have the cool one that not many others probably will have.

[00:23:36] Yeah. From this point on anyways. It's a custom for me with the, with the wood grips on there. That's awesome. So, um, my grandfather's a carpenter, so I'm going to be having him making me some, some wood grips for this. So nice. Nice. I like it. Whoa. Very cool. So one of the questions I had was how do you keep, there's a lot of stuff in here, especially, uh, Chris's personality in relation to rigs and a lethal weapon, things like that.

[00:24:00] And his, his, his, his like very, uh, how haunted he is with grief and loss, things like that. And then throughout the book, there's several lines that I either put stars next to underlined or wrote in the margins. Like this is a good line and like drew an arrow to it and things like that. Like I put like great writing and then like would square off like a whole paragraph or some stuff. Um, that like really caught my attention more so than, than other stuff around it. But how do you keep, how do you keep it cool and believable?

[00:24:28] And like, it makes me think of eighties actions and thrillers and, and then even, even Westerns to an extent. But how do you keep it cool without being cliche? How do you get it down to a point after however many revisions it takes to be, it's really cool. But it's not cliche. I read some thrillers and I'm like, man, this is just like the, the, the thriller trope. Like Mike was saying. Um, yeah, you know, that's interesting. I wish you hadn't asked me cause I didn't don't waste band with thinking about that. Now I probably will going forward.

[00:24:58] Um, but, uh, but I know, I know what you mean. Uh, and I think it's just because, you know, the, the imprint on my soul from popular culture between age eight and 18, let's say 10 and 20. Uh, when I was reading all these books by the masters, by Tom Clancy and David Burrell and Nielsen DeMille and AJ Quinnell and JC Pollock and Mark Olin and Liz William Moore. Um, all those guys who are really my professors in the art of storytelling. I mean, I'm at that year. I didn't read those when I was 40. I didn't read those when I was 30. I didn't even read when I was 25. I'd already read all those.

[00:25:26] Uh, as soon as I could start reading adult fiction, as soon as I switched over from like the Farley Moet type young adult books in fifth grade to the same kind of books my parents were reading. Um, and then I got a lifetime of experience essentially as a student of a writing, uh, through those masters of the thriller genre. Uh, and at the same time I'm watching all those TV shows, the ones that, uh, just kind of bleed over into the writing because that was popular culture influence on me at the same time.

[00:25:52] I'm reading these books, uh, just like those movies that I went to growing up and I cut out the thing in the newspaper and put it on my, on my tack it to my wall or tape it to my, to my wall of like commando or the Delta force or whatever else. I had those all over my, my room. Uh, I've had all the Mac Bolan books. Oh, there's Mac Bolan over there. There he is in the, where is he right? Uh, there he is right there in the corner right there.

[00:26:15] So I had all those, uh, all those, uh, you know, popular cultural influences that I don't have to, to search for, you know, they're already in there and it's very natural for me to just write. Um, and so I'm not really worried about tropes other than the things that come directly from Hollywood or from an author that didn't have a touch point with the actual experience.

[00:26:38] Meaning, um, when I have Chris Walker in the van at the beginning, um, and he's looking at that, that pistol, um, I didn't want that to be a Hollywood trope. I didn't not want to be, cause I've, we've seen that so many times and I didn't want that to be me, um, relying on like a Hollywood type of a trope. Um, which is typically like the, the alcohol, alcoholic veteran, uh, as you know, I kept that, the alcohol pretty much out of this for the most part.

[00:27:04] Um, and, uh, and so that's like, like James Reese and those guys there, they're, they're boozing it up, you know, quite a bit. Um, but I had that different for this guy cause I didn't want this to be the alcoholic veteran looking at that pistol, deciding if he's going to suck start that thing. Um, and which most authors in Hollywood, you know, they usually have that bottle of booze next to the guy, uh, that's doing that sort of a thing.

[00:27:27] Um, so in this case, uh, so I, I'd say that, and it comes to tropes, I'm only concerned about them, um, when they are so clearly something that's just been repeated over and over in Hollywood movies, television shows, other books that don't come from a real place. Um, so anything like that, that, uh, uh, it has to be authentic. It has to be real. It has to come from a real place. Um, it has to be meaningful, uh, and has to be true to the story. Can't be shoehorned in. Uh, everything has to, has to honor that story.

[00:27:57] So, um, so I don't worry about it, but I know the, what you're meaning when you're asking that, the question. So, um, so it's not like I, uh, it's not like something I overthink, I guess is a good, good way to put it. I realize it's there for me. It's just the story. And I happen to have that background that feeds it. Uh, if that makes sense. I didn't. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And that's probably a bad way to describe it. It's in a religion. No, no, I think it's, I think it's good. It definitely answers. It's satisfactory for sure, because I know exactly what you mean.

[00:28:26] Because I, I grew up with, with similar things just in a different generation. And, and, you know, those things impact severely how I act and present myself and speak now. And if I ever write anything from an email to a text, you know, you ask Mike, when I send a text, it's like proper grammar and things like that. Exactly. Me too. Me too. There's like kind of face space. And then there's a capital letter that starts the next sentence. And I use, I use commas. I use, I use commas and everything.

[00:28:56] Whenever I text, you can, you can ask Mike, I, I, I type and text exactly how I would formally. Yeah. So I, I, similar thing, just different generation. And like a lot of the same movies actually, because my dad and my, lots of members of my family are movie buffs and TV show buffs. And my dad was born in the seventies, grew up in the eighties. So I grew up heavily, heavily super young with, you know, a lot of the eighties action, one man army stories. Yes. I love it. Yeah.

[00:29:23] There's some direct, very direct nods to Lethal Weapon, obviously in this for, if you're a fan of it, you know, for anybody who hasn't seen it or isn't a fan of it, you know, go over their head. But, uh, you know, in the preface, I, uh, I talk about that and, uh, you know, set it up ahead of time. Um, and, uh, let people know what were the influences on this particular book. And, and, uh, and, and so Lethal Weapon is certainly in there. I wanted that relationship kind of between, uh, between Chris Walker and Jarrett Stanton and have them to be kind of like similar to the, even though they don't know each other. They're not partners.

[00:29:52] Uh, they're actually Jarrett Stanton is, is an FBI agent who's tracking Chris Walker, but I wanted them to kind of have that relationship, even though they hadn't met yet. Uh, and how to get closer and closer to one another as he gets, gets closer to that penultimate, um, engagement at the end. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's what gives you the edge. And it's so clear in the terminal list. It's so clear here with Chris Walker is that you walk the walkie, that authenticity comes through.

[00:30:19] So if you are trying to do something like bring in the eighties references or bring in the Westerns, it's not forced. And, you know, there, there's some people who set out and say, I'm going to do this because I think it will sell, or I think it will be edgy or I want to do it. You know, as opposed to you, does the story, you know, require it? Does this story to be the best story with these characters to be most believable in their motivations require this sort of background? And, and, and it does.

[00:30:45] And then on top of that, you leaning into these giants that you've studied since you were, you know, a kid and then a teenager and, uh, having that, I think really gives you the edge. It's just one of the many edges that makes a Jack Carr book, a Jack Carr book. And that comes through here, even being coauthored, even being, you know, a different character and even being outside your, your typical universe. So on that, with the coauthoring part of it all, um, we talked a lot about how your philosophy and your background comes through.

[00:31:11] What do you feel MP Woodward, you know, provided most to, uh, this book, but also to the craft of getting this book written. And similarly, what do you feel like are your lessons learned? Thinking in the Navy, your lessons learned from the first time co-authoring fiction. You've done nonfiction, but. Yeah, you know, I have lessons learned, you know, I have a, it's like a two page document working on, on lessons learned.

[00:31:33] I'm not going to give up any of it, but I do have a, uh, a document that I, that I put together to make the next one be more, more effective and efficient, uh, like time from a time perspective. Um, but, uh, yeah, this book would not exist without MP Woodward, uh, but I'll give a little bit of background on where it came from. And it's, it came 2014, uh, when I'm thinking about all the different, uh, story ideas that I have in my head and I put them all in those, some were two paragraphs, some were three, some were four, but one page executive summary is how I, how I think of.

[00:32:03] And, uh, they were just ideas for, for novels. And I put them on the table and it was very clear that the terminal list that was the one to start with, even though I wanted to start with Savage Son. I think we've talked about that before, uh, but that characters weren't at that place where I could explore the dynamic of Hunter and Hunter and the dark side of man and all those things from Savage Son. I just couldn't start with that one, even though that was the one that I wanted to start with. Cause in sixth grade, I told myself one day I'd write a novel that paid homage to the most dangerous game, uh, that I read back then in sixth grade. So, uh, so I went with terminal list and it was very clear.

[00:32:33] It wasn't even a question. Terminal list is the one to start with, but the fourth option was among those six, seven, eight, nine, 10 ideas that I had written out. And it never left me. And then I got to the summer of 2021, finishing up filming the terminal list. And we had a day off and I'm in my hotel room thinking about what I can do outside the terminal list universe. And at the time I was thinking, uh, what can I do in Hollywood? Because that was, that was my experience for that, that summer on, on the set there, finishing up filming.

[00:32:58] And, uh, go back and revisit some of those ideas that I, that I had at the outset of this and see if any of them, uh, make sense to dive back into his projects here. And I picked two of them out and fourth option was one. And then I built both of them out for the option. Once again, being one turned into a 40, 40 page PowerPoint presentation where I had actors, had pictures of new Orleans and streets, just like a mood board type of a thing. Uh, so put that together. And then I got another Hollywood deal, uh, for both of these things.

[00:33:28] And, um, and then once we got, uh, like writers attached and that sort of a thing, uh, I saw, and this was for the other project. Cause we're into the other project first. I saw it morph and I was like, oh, okay. Who knows what this is going to morph into ended up not morphing into anything. But I was like, you know what? No, one's ever going to see this pure, even it's just, it's just an idea. It's just like, you know, 40 pages of PowerPoint or whatever the other ideas was. Let's say it was 30 pages of, of Word document.

[00:33:58] Um, no one's ever going to see that. And no one's ever going to get what my best effort would be. There's going to be all these sorts of cooks in the kitchen and it's going to just turn into whatever it turns into. Um, and, but the terminal is series. I don't feel that. I feel like, Hey, however it morphs, uh, onto the screen. I'm just thankful that we're, we're making something. I'm, I'm a part of it. I'm learning how to do the screenwriting and executive produce and all that sort of a thing. And I'm a student of this. I'm a student of everything. Um, and that doesn't bother me to see the terminal list change.

[00:34:26] Uh, cause I know that we're, you're telling a story through a different medium. Now I know that first blood, the book, very different first blood, the movie, love them both. So that's kind of my, my baseline when it comes to adaptations, um, and changes from, from book to screen. And so that doesn't bother me at all when I see the changes from terminal list and true believer on the screen. Uh, but it did bother me with these other projects. And so as soon as I got a chance to claw them back, I clawed them back.

[00:34:51] And, uh, then I started on the fourth option and, uh, built it out a little more and pitched it to Simon and Schuster. And they went for it right away. And then it took me a while to find a coauthor. I just could, I just wanted to find, I was looking for a veteran. Um, and, uh, I was just reading as much as I possibly could. Probably should have done it a little faster. Cause this would have been out a year ago type of a thing. But, uh, I just really wanted to take my time and find the right person that read the handler by MP Woodward. And I was like, wow, this is great. I love it.

[00:35:19] And, uh, I called him up and asked if he wanted to do this. And, and he said, yeah, let's do it. So, uh, so from there I sent him all the 40 page PowerPoint, word document and all that. And then we went back and forth for a few months, uh, building out the outline. And, uh, so that's, that's probably the biggest value in this is that I got to work on an outline with MP Woodward. And we got to talk about it based off that foundation that was already very, very robust. Like I knew how it was going to start, how it was going to end, new story, all that.

[00:35:45] But, uh, we got to work through like the details, uh, in that outline process, which took quite a few months. Um, so we just went back and forth on it for the longest time. He went out to new Orleans, did on the ground research out there, um, came back, um, added things to the outline. And then we got to a point where like, okay, outline is good, solid. And then he took it from there for a couple months and turned it into a rough draft, gave it to me in August.

[00:36:08] And then I just took it from there and spent, you know, the next up until about a month ago, uh, working on it and getting it, uh, you know, making it what it is today. And I'm super happy with where, where it came out. I could not be more thrilled with how this book, uh, uh, turned out and then where it's going. I'm already excited for the next one. Yeah, that's great stuff. I love hearing these relationships of how the authors work together because we followed some who've been co-authoring and they kind of go passage by passage or chapter by chapter. And it's like a handoff.

[00:36:38] And so this idea of, you know, you birth the idea and he then goes on site is trying to like mind meld with you kind of like absorb that idea into, into his own brain and own writing. So it's, it's kind of interesting to hear about this different process. And how does that compare to the nonfiction process now that you're on your second nonfiction book with a co-author, which must be a whole different animal having a historian that you have to work with? You know, I'm sure data collection and citations are just a whole different skill set.

[00:37:08] So how did that compare having, uh, having someone to, you know, mind meld with? Totally different animals. Totally different animals. Uh, James Scott with the targeted series, uh, historian Pulitzer prize finalist, uh, five books out there for World War II, one on the USS Liberty, uh, that are just awesome. And I wanted to make sure that that book was an actual work of history and not pop history. You know what I mean? Um, so I didn't want it me reading a bunch of books on the Middle East, giving my take on it and then just getting it out there. I wanted this to be primary sources. I wanted to, and I, I don't know how to do that.

[00:37:37] Um, so I wanted to work with someone who really does know what they're doing. And, uh, thank goodness, James Scott wanted to, wanted to work with me, learned so much from him about research, how to, uh, correctly, legally annotate source material, how to go into archives, uh, how to pull stuff out of the archives, how to have it in these rooms that they, that they have where you can't take anything from there. You have to have it all right there. You can sometimes take photos, sometimes not that sort of a thing, but, um, how to correct and make sure all that stuff is, is legally annotated. Same thing with the photographs for, for that book as well.

[00:38:06] And for the one that's upcoming here in 2027. So, um, I learned so much from him about that, that process. Uh, so yeah, totally, totally different animals. No, no real comparison at all. Cause obviously in this, um, we're just making the whole thing up. Uh, I found authenticity of course, which is just, uh, no natural for, for everything that I, that I do, but, um, but totally different animals. Yeah. And we're doing Lockerbie. I heard you were up in Scotland for the next targeted book. Is that what you heard? It's not been officially announced yet, but it's possible. Okay.

[00:38:36] It's funny. Cause I heard, I heard you mention it. I think you might've even on one of our podcasts said it as like a offhand comment. So I went to David Brown and I said, is this official? And David Brown was like, well, if it's on the internet, you'll let it slide. I won't say, I won't say it's official yet, but, uh, in the next couple of months we'll have a, you know, a launch of some sort with, uh, you know, a video and some, some graphics and stuff that go out there. Kind of explain what's, uh, what's coming next. So, um, yeah. And, and, uh, yeah. And then we'll see what comes after that.

[00:39:06] We're already talking about it. You know, think, thinking about your socials and graphics and everything. I'm seeing a lot about the dark wolf podcast. How's that going? Because it feels like I kind of was riding the dark wolf hype train for so long. As soon as it was kind of like leaving my, my memory kind of feeling like the past, this podcast is bringing it right back. So what was with the decision to drop those episodes now? Yeah. Well, I had to get my schedule to coincide with all the actors schedules. And I think we recorded the first one, I think before the show dropped.

[00:39:34] So I think in August, wow. I would have liked it. Not like in conjunction with, or like the plan was not to drop. Uh, you know, a week after or something like that, or two weeks after or whatever, uh, an episode came out. And then, uh, it was just hard to track, get everybody to, to schedule. It was just scheduling. Yeah. Chris was the hardest one though. Cause then he's, he's has a mercy come out. Like super Mario, he's flying all over the world. Like you're trying to get time with, uh, with Chris. Uh, there was a big lag between the last time I recorded something, which is probably,

[00:40:04] geez, maybe maybe it was December, maybe it was late November. Anyway, sometime like near the end of the year, I got one of the last people that I needed, uh, one of the last actors and then, uh, still didn't have Chris. And so I had to wait till he got back from all his stuff for, for flying around the world for promotions and everything else that he was doing. Uh, and then to record that in, uh, geez, or March. Yeah. So just so March. So finally got, got Chris and then you have to put those things together. And then I had my, my team to edit someone gets them all together. So it was, there was no grand strategy behind it all other than. Yeah.

[00:40:33] And then just scheduling. It's kind of working out though. Cause it's kind of pulling me back into it. I hadn't thought for the last like month or so I would rewatch it anytime soon. And now that I'm seeing the podcast pop up, it's kind of re-energized me to want to go back and watch it for a third time. Yeah. People are really liking the podcast. Uh, and it's, uh, it's, it was so great to talk to everybody. It was kind of have a little reunion with them on the, uh, uh, it just on, on, online here on a, on a recording for the podcast and then have the team put in like that, wherever we're talking about, put those scenes into it.

[00:41:03] So if you're watching on YouTube, you know, it's more and more immersive and all of that. So people are really liking those going behind the scenes. Um, and so students of film students of, uh, you know, pop culture, I guess. Uh, but, uh, and the series in general. So it's really cool. I think to have, to have that for those that are interested to go behind the scenes. And there's a, we talk about a lot of, a lot of different things that, uh, that, that people are the one that get into film or television or whatever are, uh, would probably find valuable. So, um, so that was a lot of fun and we'll anchor it with a final one with Taylor. So I did two with Taylor.

[00:41:33] So one was in August. I think we recorded that. And the last one was, uh, gosh, might've been January or February or something like that. So I got a second one. So it'll anchor with, uh, with Sarts with Taylor and, uh, with David DiGiulio, the show runner and Jared Shaw, my, my buddy, uh, from the SEAL teams who plays Boozer. And then, uh, it'll anchor with, with Taylor, just me and Taylor talking. So it came out great. It was really, it was really fun to revisit it. And also for me to kind of get to revisit those a little later also is very cool. And then also in the lead up to maybe an announcement on true believer, I can't, uh,

[00:42:03] and, uh, put the, put those announcements off for too much longer if it's going to come out here before the end of the year. So it's kind of a good lead in to that as well. And that was by, by happenstance, there was no, uh, there was no thought to it other than, Hey, I got to get everybody scheduled. And then we got to put these things together and then get them out there. I think it'll work out well though. Um, last time we talked, you were talking a little bit about the changing of the guard at, uh, Amazon in the studios and things like that. Uh, I was curious if, if that has, you know, settled down at all and you have a better roadmap

[00:42:30] for the future at all in that department, man, I wish I could, could break some news here. Uh, Hollywood's a mysterious place and you know, there are all sorts of, uh, I guess competing projects and, uh, budget allocations and then the changing kind of environment, uh, from the viewer perspective as well. And what's occupying people's attention and, um, uh, other things that Amazon is signed on to do, uh, that needs to probably budgetary allocations.

[00:43:00] So there's all sorts of things that are way outside my purview that are impacting whether or not there'll be a second season or, uh, or just what's ahead. So it's, uh, I don't know, but I have learned some lessons though. Uh, so with, I'm not in a rush to option the fourth option. Um, because I think I see some, I mean, there, I have to see some value in being able to, if you do something like this, uh, to, uh, if it's your second one, like for me, it was,

[00:43:27] it was, I think it was the, the, definitely the right move to have the exact person that I wanted to star as James Reese option and have the exact director that I wanted attached to it, Antoine, like just go, let's do this. Um, but I also see how, when you have an A-list star like that, there are a lot of, um, options and opportunities for them. Um, and they have a lot of responsibilities as well to, to multiple projects across the board. So at the time, uh, once again, just like trying to schedule a podcast, uh, there's a

[00:43:55] lot of projects that take time, energy, effort, not the film, but, uh, then to promote. Um, so, but so I can see like signing on, finding an actor for the fourth option. That's not well known that, uh, like three seasons at the outset type of a thing, almost early reacher, like, uh, like to do something like that. Yeah, definitely. Definitely see how that can be beneficial for sure. Um, I, I do like Chris Pratt's, uh, optimism for the, uh, for, for like the universe of

[00:44:24] James and those things. So I enjoy that. I hope, uh, I hope, you know, if you go the way of the film instead of series for Savage Sun, I think of the whole of the whole set, uh, it, it tends to loan itself better to maybe that format because of how the act structure is. And it's kind of all gas, no brakes. And I, while at the time, I think that was your longest book, I think it's maybe one of the quicker reads in the series. Yeah. It just flows really well. Yeah. It flows really well.

[00:44:53] Um, but one, one question before we jump to spoilers for fourth option that I had was, do you enjoy writing bad guys more than good guys? Because your bad guys are detailed enough and they either, you know, add some comedy to it, but for some reason in, in all of the novels, they're all somehow unlikable enough that you can't wait for them to get what's coming to them. It's true. And, uh, they all, they all are different enough to where you don't feel like, oh, this

[00:45:23] is just another goon or set of bad guys. You know, they're, they have like their specific personalities. I know we talked in the past, there was a James Reese novel where you kind of had two knuckleheads that are not great guys, but they aren't necessarily bad guys and they were going to get killed and you ended up liking them too much so that you kind of let them, let them live in the end. So I was curious. Yeah. Devil's hand. Do you enjoy writing the bad guys any more or, or, or less than, than, you know, your main, your main cast? Yeah, no, I don't think it's a, it's a more or less type of a thing.

[00:45:52] It's more of a, uh, okay. I get to explore a new background that makes sense. Story tells the story forward. And like you said, and I probably am, I mean, who knows, I'm not going to, it's going to change how I do think I'm going to do is write for the story. Like I said, but, uh, but it's fun to come up with a new background that feeds and propels the story. Uh, so, cause I, I, I think that's, that's important not to have that cardboard cutout bad guy, that goon bad guy that, Hey, what book is this guy in? Is this the same?

[00:46:20] This sounds exactly the same as like two books ago. This changed the name type of a situation. Um, so I'm very cognizant of that. This is why I give all the care of bad guy characters, such different backgrounds and such detailed backgrounds, even if they're going to get killed on the next page. Yeah. I've been splinted, something similar to, uh, with, with some of his bad guys, uh, up and then kill them off type of a type of a thing. So, uh, so I do that. And also I think the reader like, Oh, you're not going to kill somebody off. You just spent so much time describing. Yeah. Psych. Boom. Yeah. Yeah. I'll put this head type of thing.

[00:46:50] Um, so, so I do like, I like writing all of them. I like to get them to know Mike. And I guess this is why I don't feel like I get bored writing my recurring characters is because they're evolving. And it was very important to me to have a character that evolves over the course of books and doesn't just stay static and like, Oh, now he's saving the world from a biological weapon. Now he's saving it from a nuclear Armageddon. Uh, and, but it's the same guy driving. And maybe that's the wrong thing to do because, uh, you know, the, the bond films certainly do something similar.

[00:47:18] Uh, in a certain sense, you get the same guy stays similar in age, uh, for, for most of it. Uh, same thing in the books. He stayed a similar age in the, in the books. Um, and, uh, and it's, I'm going to age my, you know, James Reese slowly, uh, but, uh, but I want him to evolve. Even if I'm aging him slowly, it's not the same person he's affected by the events of the previous novels. And he's using some of the things that he's learned in those previous novels, successes and failures to apply them to a current problem set as wisdom. And like, that's what we're, that's what we all have in common, no matter where we

[00:47:47] come from in the world, we're all on a journey as is James Reese, as is now Chris Walker. So, um, so for me, I think having that, that touch point with, uh, with every single person on the planet that my characters are on a journey, just like they are just like you are just like I am. Um, that's important to me. So I don't get bored writing those guys, um, cause they're evolving, but I also like creating new backgrounds for, uh, for the bad guys. Cause then I got to know them as well. And even if I, when I'm writing those backgrounds, like I'm starting to get to know them if it's,

[00:48:15] uh, you know, if I'm giving some, some, some, some background, but I really get to know them when I put them in conversation with somebody else. Like at the start, I'll know that bad guy's name is Chris. He's a CEO of this company. Um, and I kind of know what's going to, going to happen to him, but I don't know him yet. And then I put them in a conversation with somebody else. Then I start to really get to know him. Personality comes out. So, uh, so that's been fun for me across all the novels.

[00:48:41] It's like flexing a different muscle with the villains and it makes me think of cry havoc. The one guy with the opera and every time there's an opera discussion and dialogue and philosophy, but yet, no, actually, yeah, quite a few other ones as well. But, uh, well, I'm going to look for that now in the Jack car stories. I'm going to look for the villain having that dialogue where we get to a peek behind the curtain of who they are, what motivates them. Yeah. So that's what I'm going to know. And sometimes I did some of that, some of that down, maybe a tiny bit, maybe, uh, because

[00:49:09] I'm still, I mean, I'm like, Oh, I got to know this person too well. And I was just having fun having him in this conversation, repeated himself a little here. So I, you know, edit that down, but I'm having such fun writing the dialogue. Uh, a lot of the times that, uh, that, uh, yeah, maybe I, I, I'll go back and shave that down a little bit. How much. It's one of those hidden cars and I'm going to look for now, just in every book. I'm going to try to find that and, and peel that back. Well, before we switch over here, cause I know Tyler's got some spoiler filled questions for you. Uh, and we'll have a switch over to a new episode for everyone.

[00:49:39] Pre-order the book. Once you finish it, come back here. We'll have another episode, just a few more minutes with Jack asking him some spoilers before we do though. You mentioned character evolution and trying to get away from that bond model, which worked for that, uh, universe, but we know Chris Pratt or James Reese is going to move on in, in, in some way. What's any hints we can get at the post red sky morning? What's next for James Reese and particularly what's next for James Reese and Katie? Uh, well, I'm supposed to be writing it right now.

[00:50:09] Uh, so it's, this has been a media week because I, from here I go to a Hampton's book festival and then I go to, uh, Vietnam taking a group of Vietnam veterans, Mac V. Sog veterans back to Vietnam for the first time. Awesome. Or so the first time since the sixties, seventies for, uh, for all of them, um, going back with the best defense foundation, like I've done to Normandy with world war two veterans before. Um, so leave for that. And then I go right into crazy book tour, um, New Jersey, by the way, we talked about that in the book. We're going to talk about, uh, I was supposed to have a more controlled book tour this time.

[00:50:38] And, uh, that ended up not happening because then I got invited to go to a thriller fest and Barbara Peters from poison pen book store asked me, uh, if I would accompany her to get her legacy award. And so of course I'm doing that. So that added some time. And then, uh, Hannity called and asked if I could come on his podcast, uh, in early May. And I'm like, Nope, I guess I can stop in over in Florida on my way to, to, to New York. So that just added. So it backed it up and it was already, you know, kind of getting not crazy long, but long enough.

[00:51:06] So now it's most of May, uh, the book tour, but, uh, those two in, in New Jersey are, uh, happened during thriller fest. So that's kind of like a pre, uh, kind of kickoff to what was going to start on Monday now starts on, uh, Friday, I think, uh, beforehand in, in New Jersey. So that's how that, that worked out. And how did I get down? What was I talking about? I was going to say perfect deflection away from telling us what's next with James, Reese and Katie. So yeah, James Reese eight. So into James Reese eight right now.

[00:51:33] And, uh, it was such a good arc from book one through seven. Um, so gave that a rest obviously with cry havoc. And, uh, my original plan was to have fourth option come out in May or, uh, January, February. And then James Reese eight come out this may June. And then a bunch of things started piling up. First cry havoc took so much longer than anticipated, uh, then the edits on, on fourth option and everything else, uh, all my writing on that just took so much longer because there was,

[00:52:02] uh, uh, there was the career for the show. And then there was, uh, uh, my book tour for cry havoc that ended up being in October and not in June. So just things just come, you know, snowballed, I guess. So, uh, so fourth option should already be out and James Reese eight should be coming out this May, June, but it'll be next May, June. So I'm working on that right now. But the challenge was, Hey, how do you, when there was this great story arc between, uh, books

[00:52:27] one and seven, um, how do you resurrect James Reese, uh, from where I left him at the end of book seven, red sky morning. And, uh, so we'll talk about that when, uh, when, uh, when it comes out or pre pre before, before it comes out, uh, next year. Sounds good, but he's coming. He's coming back. Jack, thanks for joining us. And, uh, it's just fantastic to see you branching out into this another hit, another great success

[00:52:54] and, and good luck on the tour and with all these future projects you've outlined with us. Thank you. Thank you. Really appreciate it. Always love talking to you. And, uh, yeah, I always love talking books, reading process, all the rest of it. So, um, yeah, looking forward to our next conversation already. Sounds good.