The Terminal List Season 2, Eps 5–8 Review: Near Perfect Adaptation! (Spoilers)

[00:00:09] All right, guys, we are back with good friend of the podcast, Tyler Boer, and we are here today to talk the second half of The Terminal List Season 2, Episodes 5 through 8. I want to keep calling it True Believer, but the show isn't in marketing itself as True Believer, which is shocking because it's so close to the book. Are you surprised, Tyler, that the marketing doesn't have True Believer in the title?

[00:00:35] I think that they did a lot of the marketing for the posters and everything that say True Believer. It says that somewhere True Believer is training to kill you is in a lot of the marketing and PR posters and things like that. So I think on that side of the house, they did really well. It's tough to do something like you have to think if you're talking about, I think they call them anthology series where each season is kind of independent. So something that comes to mind is the American Horror Story series.

[00:01:05] And even those are still always under the same title and each season has a name, but it doesn't change the actual name of the show, I think. So I think like with Terminal List Dark Wolf being the prequel, I think you would want to keep them. Yeah, I think you want to keep like the mainline series and spinoffs separate. So I think you kind of have to just have it be Terminal List season two. Otherwise, then we got Terminal List Dark Wolf and then we have Terminal List and then Terminal List True Believer, Terminal List Savage Son and so on.

[00:01:34] So I think it's tough whenever you get down the line of the series because from what I understand, it's looking good as far as renewal and continuation and spinoffs and everything. So no, I think I think the way they did it is was the right move. Yeah, but I know what you mean. It is so close to the book. I think that's the way me and my friends have been referring to it as well. It's so close to the book. And I know you said episodes one through four. You're blown away with how close it is.

[00:02:03] The text to screen adaptation. Well, it's really five through eight. That really blew my mind about how accurate they are, particularly the sniper V sniper episode, which damn, I can't wait to talk about. And the fact that they did it in the penultimate episode, episode seven, it kind of hit me off guard. I was I wasn't sure if it was coming then or if we had to wait till the very end. So I enjoyed it all the more because of that surprise.

[00:02:27] And the other reason I brought it up with True Believer is because the incredible and guys, in case you haven't realized, we are spoiling the show tonight. That incredible ending in Katie's book, James Reese is our true believer. That montage hit so hard. It left me on such a high wrapping up this season with that was just a perfect finishing touch.

[00:02:57] I I'm over the moon about it. It's one of my favorite moments in television of getting to watch and listen to that scene and watch the montage of everything. I don't know about you, but were you shocked that that was the way they wrapped things up? Because I loved it. I was I don't know about shocked. I think I was really happy. That's the way they wrapped things up. I mean, you almost get the sense that True Believers like the Empire Strikes Back of the series a little bit. The bad guys win. Freddy's dead. Reese is kind of in limbo a little bit. He doesn't know whether to trust Vic or not.

[00:03:27] You know, he likes Andy, which is how the show is as well. And I was curious, you know, Jack talks about pretty frequently. He didn't put Katie in book two because he didn't know how to solve the problem of how did Reese know that she wasn't going to die? And by book three, he kind of figured that out. So she's absent. She's relatively absent in book two other than him kind of stalking her a little bit like we talked about last episode. So I think that with this is a much better use of her character.

[00:03:56] And I want to get your thoughts on her character development and her arc, you know, from us kind of annoyed is the easiest word to use, but it's not the right word to use with her. I think, you know, we've talked about her being miscast and I know other people have as well, but she actually grew on me quite a bit this season, especially with her being being injured and stuff.

[00:04:17] I know that kind of sidelines her a little bit, but her use of her, you know, reporter, you know, trying to find information and actually grab information for Rafe that otherwise he wouldn't have had. It was helpful. And then he goes to Jed, your old homie Jed, for a little bit. So I'm curious before we start reviewing episode by episode, what do you think of Katie's arc? And do you feel like she's a better fit as Katie at this point?

[00:04:45] I think she is. I think they I don't want to say they, you know, written a lot of wrongs from season one, but they definitely, I think, have made me more comfortable with her as her character, but also as the ultimate partner of Reese. A little bit of a spoiler there, but they developed a little chemistry at the end. And instead of this whole in the book, this cat and mouse of can they really trust one another? Can they really overcome what went on with the Hartley estate at the end of the Terminalist book?

[00:05:14] Instead of really going into that kind of psychodrama back and forth between the two of them. Here we just get to see a man who is broken, be vulnerable, let the tears come out while she is basically. Telling him back, you know, his life's work and completing the biography on him. You could clearly see they're each completing each other's story.

[00:05:38] They're each like such an important piece of the puzzle for them to become who they are and move on and, you know, mature into this next phase of life. And I think that moment at the end of episode eight, season two, did so much to land the plane on where Katie was, where Katie is, and more importantly, where she's going to be going in Reese's life. I don't know if I bought into it all first season, early in the season.

[00:06:04] At that moment when the book was complete, when they came to each other, they were so relieved to see each other after he was worrying about her and she's been worrying about him, you know, this whole time. It finally came together in a face to face that was heartfelt, that was vulnerable and that just had beautiful poetic writing. And that again, went with that montage with all the flashbacks that did enough to sell me on Katie and I'm all in to see what happens next.

[00:06:30] Yeah. So if anybody's watching this episode that didn't watch last week's, you should watch that one first. But, you know, I talked about this is I've watched through all eight episodes twice since release. I kind of binge them a day or two after release. And then and then with these episodes that Mike and I are recording, I've watched like the first for the day of recording and I've watched the second the second half today. And something I noticed is that both Reese and Rafe kind of admire Katie a little bit.

[00:06:58] So Reese, when he gets to Africa, he looks her up and he sees her on Bill Maher and kind of says that a girl still in the fight a little bit. You know, he's still paying attention and worried about her or focusing on what she's dealing with. And then I like Rafe's whenever he collects the folder from Reese's Toyota. He says clever, Katie. And, you know, he kind of it's a little bit of admiration from both of them that she has a little bit of tradecraft going on to to help them out.

[00:07:25] You could say she's the true believer, the true believer in journalism, what it can be, what it should be. Yeah. Pushing back against the money in Voltstream, the powers that be manipulating the media outlets. I would say in her craft, it's her version of going down range when she's tracking a story. She's every bit the true believer. And I think Reese and Rafe are seeing that in her world. She's coming to understand their world a bit more.

[00:07:51] I really love these two worlds, the civilian, the military, the covert, the agency. Yeah. These worlds are all coming together with Katie as kind of that that that center point, that meeting point between the two. So I think it's well done. And I wasn't sure early in the season about, you know, the good good cop, bad cop, you know, little side detective story of the two of them. The Andrenov stuff at Voltstream. Also, I was a little off on why is he taking over?

[00:08:19] Maybe because it's kind of going off book a little bit. So I'm just like, I really I really tried hard not to spoil anything for you. And I'm happy I didn't because I wanted to talk to you about how it delivered for you and how it delivered. And I got to go through that journey. So thank you for allowing that. Yeah. I paid extra attention to it because I was like, I really want this part of it to work because as we're going to get to everything about Mo is working. Everything is our 10, the sniper shot, everything Ukraine. Yep.

[00:08:46] Making it instead of the Ukraine from the book, but the Ukraine of modern day with the peace deal absolutely worked. It's like they're checking every box and the one doing current events, modernizing it for current events was perfect. I didn't think they do it. And they boldly entered into it and pulled it off. Yeah, I think so. Real quick, you want to start with episode five. So it starts off with Rafe rushing Katie to a friend of his that's like, you know, she has an army sweater on and she's currently a nurse.

[00:09:15] I want to say I think her name is Harper. Yeah. Which is I believe she's played by Tom Hopper's wife in real life. And so she renders aid to Katie and they kind of figure out that she has it looks like a collapsed lung. They kind of give her some relief by creating an airway out the side of her lung, which was cool. So instead of doing like the upper rib, they go to the side and give her some relief.

[00:09:42] And then I like how quickly they're communicating and calmly. Basically, Katie's lost a lot of blood and Rafe pretty quickly says he's negative. He's universal. So he's like prepared to give her blood essentially. So but one of the small details that Katie actually does get out is Reese's Toyota. Yes.

[00:10:02] And something that was in the parking garage that you only see the rear of in the previous episode, she's hiding behind it after she gets shot at her forerunner is she's taking cover behind Reese's Toyota. Now in the book and in season one, it's a 1988 to 1990 FJ62 Land Cruiser. And for whatever reason, I know that that Land Cruiser is at the Land Cruiser Museum in Colorado currently.

[00:10:32] I think Jack Carr owns it and he loaned it to them for display as it like being a cool Land Cruiser that's been on film. For whatever reason, most of the DC stuff was filmed in Canada. I want to say it was Toronto, but I'm not sure. Yeah. I think it's Toronto. For whatever reason, small detail that the Land Cruiser crowd would get like me is that they had to do the best they could with whatever they could get there.

[00:10:58] And what they get there is an FJ60, which is close, but no cigar. And essentially it's super similar model, but eagle-eyed viewers that know Land Cruisers would be like, that is not the same truck. But it's okay. It's close enough. Are you the 1% who would recognize that or the 0.01%? I don't know. I don't know. I was like, this is bullshit. That is not Reese's from the first season.

[00:11:26] But for anybody who wonders why I know so much, I had one. I had a white FJ62 like Reese in book one, but they changed it in the show to like a champagne gray. But yeah, so that is not an FJ62. But she does hide documents under the rear where she was taking cover in the previous episode. And Rafe finds it and kind of takes the lead from there. I'll be honest. I don't know if I would have even recognized that that's what she had done. So you had told me when we recorded last time.

[00:11:55] But I really think when she's on that triage table in Harper's house and says Reese's Toyota, that might have been the first sniff of me putting the pieces together. And so I too would have went with Clever KT. And I could hear Tom Hopper's voice saying that one line. It was really well done. Yeah. My goodness. I was expecting Clever Girl from Jurassic Park to call back because Chris Pratt's in that franchise as well. Yeah, that's true. That is close enough. Yeah, close enough.

[00:12:25] Yeah, but I thought Tom Hopper and everything here is delivering. Rafe again, not in the book. True Believer a lot of a standout from Dark Wolf. There's no way that you don't rely on him after what he did in Dark Wolf. And so to bring him back and give him all this screen time is fantastic. And since I mentioned Dark Wolf, I think one of the next scenes with him is Jed Haverford at the prison. Yeah. What do you think? Bring him back an oldie but a goodie.

[00:12:53] I thought it was good to wait to tie in all these characters. You know, he's not the only one from Dark Wolf that makes an appearance. Obviously, Ben is in earlier episodes as a distant memory for Reese and brought up by Jules Landry a time or two here in the next episode or two. But yeah, I thought, right? Yeah, Boozer's in there briefly. Yeah, as well. And then I want to say the Mossad agent from Dark Wolf is also. Yeah, Tal is in these episodes as well with Rafe, which is cool.

[00:13:23] When they're doing the facial recognition in Athens. Yeah. Yeah. So she's a part of pretty much all of the Athens stuff for the exporter, importer guy. I think you call it season zero. I really think Dark Wolf has to be the prequel. Well, the problem is you can't do it for long because there's more Dark Wolf coming. I think there's more Dark Wolf coming. And yet and Amazon put under a whole separate category. It's got Terminalist in the name at least. But I wonder how the people who are not listening to pods like us haven't read the books. I wonder how they're going to access the show.

[00:13:52] I really got to imagine there's a large cohort of viewers who just watch season one and two. Maybe don't know about Dark Wolf. Maybe click off the ads when it recommends it or just isn't up. Maybe I would think that like, you know, people go to the similar, you know, show similar to this and it's listed or, you know, whenever they log into Prime. Oh, you watch Terminalist. Here's something similar to that. And it's Terminalist Dark Wolf. So, I mean, do you think it's going to have a similar Mitch Rapp, Vince Flynn, Vince Flynn problem long term of it's crazy.

[00:14:21] There's there's still confusion over American Assassin, which was the origin story, but written more than halfway through. So since his writing career. Yeah, but I mean, people are still arguing over. Do you read in publication order? Do you do you reading chronological order? I could see this show after it's, I don't know, four or five seasons deep. How many seasons of Dark Wolf is there by then? I do wonder. It was such a smart play to introduce the characters in Dark Wolf.

[00:14:51] But is it too removed when it's really necessary? I guess what I'm getting at is what what would happen if we had somebody on the show reviewing season two with us and they haven't watched Dark Wolf? Like, I guess you just buy Tal. She just shows up. She's the computer whiz. OK, you could buy. Yeah, I mean, everybody from Dark Wolf gets a quick introduction. Moe. You can just jive with Moe here, even if you don't know anything else about him. I do think Jed, though, is like, who is this random guy? So, yeah, I guess it does work.

[00:15:21] I just wonder if season two hits different. Yeah. Jed does mention, you know, look at look at you. You know, you were being self-righteous about the CIA, you know, years ago and now you're not. And, you know, things like that. So it kind of leads you to believe there's more history there than maybe what you realize. So, yeah. But I think beyond that, we get into is this the episode where we get into Moe and Reese? I was about to say we haven't even talked. I think my favorite.

[00:15:50] Scene of the episode, and I'm probably going to say my favorite scene of like the middle section of the season. Yeah. Like this center section of the season. I'm not saying it's lacking for action, lacking for the shootouts, but this one absolutely delivered when they track Moe, who was now having this meeting with Al Nawaz. And Landry walks in and they're about to off Moe and Landry stabs his partner.

[00:16:20] Landry's being the complete jackass. And where were they? What town were they in? Was that still in Beirut? Yeah, I believe that's still in Beirut, I think. But, yeah, Landry walks in and, you know, basically tries to say nothing personal. And, yeah, stabs Moe's friend. But outside of that meet is Freddie and Reese and Ox and Eli standing by.

[00:16:49] I love everything about them. Kind of, you know, it's originally Freddie and Reese looking down the scope, tracking how many guys are coming. How many guys are coming out? Oh, actually, they're getting intel from Moe's phone because they're listening in on the conversation on Moe's phone. So I just really love how the ops getting set up. And then once things go kinetic, when Reese has to go in there and Freddie has to start taking guys out. And eventually Al Nawaz goes one way with his guard. And then Reese is trying to save Moe from another shootout.

[00:17:19] And they're counting bodies and knowing who's who's next. That that that scene delivered in every single way. If you were kind of like, oh, I'm missing that action. I'm missing this military operation side of things. That one absolutely hit at the perfect. All while Landry is making a getaway and covering his tracks and dumping his cell phone and sending messages and then dumping. And then, you know, I really loved Freddie's sniper hide.

[00:17:43] It was really simple and pretty realistic with it kind of being, you know, we're not putting snipers out windows or barrels out windows or anything. We're kind of on a tripod that's covered with a little bit of ghillie. And then and then, you know, it's back in the room a little bit in there. Their hole they have to shoot out is just a few missing bricks in the wall. But I love the sniper shot on Al Nawaz. Al Nawaz. They say hedgehog down or jackpot on hedgehog, which is the code name they have for him from the book.

[00:18:13] And then, yeah, Reese is inside doing some hand to hand or closer quarters stuff to try and rescue Moe. And so then from there, they kind of, you know, consolidate. And Ox is driving a Toyota with a dish go on the back that Eli is manning. And I think in the book, Eli's character's nickname is Django. But in the show, they call him Eli. At one point, he's introduced as Django, I think.

[00:18:40] OK, I think he gets introduced by Vic or someone else. OK, I wouldn't have been Vic. I only recall in the show him being referred to as Eli for most of it. But, yeah, in the book, he's just called Django because of Django Unchained character. Yeah. And so he goes ham on those dudes because there's like a secondary hit. There's like a QRF for lack of a better term. These are just terrorists. But it's just another dish dish go that kind of comes out of nowhere.

[00:19:06] And I like the slow presentation of that, of truck and then dish go. And it's like shit. And then he kind of swings around his gun and unloads on those guys. Freddy has the best shot, though, of that. He immediately shoots the dish gunner first. Yes. Before they really get into trouble. Takes out the heavy artillery. Yeah. Yeah. No, I really I really like that scene. But I think I also the reason why I like the timing of it is I know this story eventually has to get to the Ukraine of it all.

[00:19:34] I know the Andreynov has to be brought back in. I know Landry has to get what's coming to him, which. Oh, yeah. The next episode goes heavy into justice for Landry or retribution. Yeah. And I know it's like we got to transition to some of this stuff. And I'm also waiting for Mo to be back on our side. We know he's being run. We know Landry sold him out. And I'm like, wait, I just want to see Mo with Reese as the good guys operating as part of the team. And they do a really good job.

[00:20:03] I think it's the next episode where they're all hanging out and Freddy's playing the guitar and they're playing cards. Yeah. I just want to get to that type of Mo. And we got there. Which they do pretty quickly. I can't exactly remember how episode five ends, if it's with that shootout or if there's another moment where it's kind of fade to black or a cut. But I know episode six. Go ahead. No, I was going to say how five ends.

[00:20:29] I don't remember, but it's with Landry slipping away because I think there was a connection to six opening with Gray. Correct. And it could have actually been Oliver Gray donning the mask. Was that at the end of episode? Maybe. Maybe it's Jed telling Rafe that who the mole is and that it's Oliver Gray. And then they cut to Gray putting on a disguise. Puts on the disguise. Yep. And then he walks out of that motel. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

[00:20:56] So then it's another turning point because it's also bringing us into the grave at all. Yeah. Six opens up and Gray is at a diner and Landry joins him and basically, you know, confronts him about, you know, you're trying to tie up loose ends and not pay me. Well, too bad. Like, here I am. You got to pay up. And Landry sticks it to him. I like that. It really shows Oliver Gray as being the worm who's the wannabe spy. Right. And Landry's like, you don't have what it takes to be a door kicker. He's like, stick to numbers. Yeah.

[00:21:25] And basically, I actually like Landry in that scene. They really. So, so quick, quick pause on running through the episode. I want to get your take on this. You know, in the book, you know that Oliver is kind of the bad guy throughout the book. There's a big build up in it and shows his turn. And you asked about the photography related stuff, which you eventually get. We don't have to talk about it yet, but we can. They did it all essentially. They do, but not as quite in much as much detail as the book.

[00:21:54] But you know more about how big of a shitbag Landry is. And, you know, he's basically killing prostitutes nearly nightly and everything like that. You get a little bit of a taste of that. You get a taste of that. The potential is there. Yep. But what do you think about? I think that they're much worse in the books. I think Oliver is thought to be a much more slime ball. And Landry is, I feel like Landry from the book is just a much bigger asshole.

[00:22:22] But also Landry in the book isn't currently at CIA where this one is. Yeah. You know. I think you had to temper him a little bit and make that buffoonishness be internal. The way he talks. Yeah. The way he comports himself. The way he confronts people. You know, the way he's talking to Mo in front of Al Nawaz right there. Being this American stereotypical jackass. I think they take a lot of his, you know, foibles and roll it all into that aspect of his character.

[00:22:51] And so it hits because it makes you hate him in a different way. Yeah. They do elevate it with the nightclub scene where he got his, you know, 10 mil from Oliver Gray. And he goes out and he's partying and he drugs the girl and he's bringing her home. Yeah. And so right as we're about to see that side of Landry that yes, in the book, we know he's been doing those things for a while and he has had a lot of victims. But I like here that they give you a taste. They're leading you on to, oh, no, this is not going to be good. And Reese comes out of nowhere. Yeah. Because I don't know if I was expecting him.

[00:23:21] And so he and Landry get to go toe to toe with a hand combat. One of the most like realistic fights I've seen in television in quite a while. I don't know if there's one that I like more than this. It's not like it's the best fight of all time. But as far as like how real it feels, it's really, really good. I right before we started recording, I got through the whole first episode of Jack Carr's podcast reviewing season two with actors. And so the first episode was Chris Pratt.

[00:23:50] And they actually talk about this fight in detail. And they talked about how Chris, they filmed it to where he held onto the rear naked choke quite a bit longer to where he was even hanging on to it very long after Landry's out cold. And just kind of being a little more sinister version of Reese, which I probably would have liked. But for the editing sake, they cut it down a little bit for, you know, I caught that, you know, he does get a rear naked choke with two hooks in.

[00:24:19] There's one little detail that I would have changed. But other than that, it was it was good. Yeah, something about these fight scenes. And again, I'm the layman with cars, with guns, with martial arts. I'm glad we got you here. I know nothing about this world. So I am able to come at it like I think a wide swath of the audience who's just like entertain me. Just make it good. And so when I know and I can be comfortable knowing even the experts are OK with how this is going, it allows me to be more entertained easily.

[00:24:48] So I wouldn't have noticed anything about the fight except, man, they're using improvised weapons. They're each, I think, equally getting shots in on one another where it keeps you wondering if Reese is going to get knocked out or worn down from this. So it's not one of those fake one sided fights where you just come in all Superman. Yeah, they really, they talked about how they had Luke Hemsworth bulk up or he wanted to bulk up for this season because he's a little bit.

[00:25:15] He's much bigger muscular wise than Dark Wolf, but it's because he's kind of trying to compensate for some things. And so Napoleon, yeah, yeah, I think it was I think it was really cool because you did feel like Reese was in danger and like Landry can get the better of him potentially. But using some jujitsu and stuff like that, he he eventually gets like an RNC choke and and gets him out cold, which I love what happened next.

[00:25:44] I knew he wasn't dead, but I love that he throws him in a body bag and he's a he's in a multi-story apartment with a pool. And he kind of floats him over there in a body bag and has him tethered up and he drops him to the crew below Eli and Ox grab him from the pool. But another cool thing happens right at that moment, which is Rafe calls for us. Yeah, yeah. Is that when he what's the main thing he's trying to communicate to Reese?

[00:26:11] Is he trying to read him in on Kestrel and everything he's finding? Yeah, a little bit of that. I mean, that's after the Jed Haverford discussion. And he always warns about Oliver Gray. Yeah, he says Oliver Gray and Reese says, well, Oliver's related to this thing I'm running, actually. And and goes from there. And they you know, that's when he delivers the PR line of, you know, everything's connected to Reese, basically.

[00:26:34] So that also, I think, is opening a storyline that they clearly wanted to address with Tom Reese and his father and childhood. And they do a good job in the end of showing us why they had that flashback early. And I think setting up a lot for Savage Son and beyond, however they handle it. Yeah, I think it was clear in the season. Tom Reese is a player.

[00:27:00] And that makes sense for the book in that everything about Oliver Gray and Landry and some of their backstory. Yeah. Years before all this is set, I think is really important to plant the seeds because that could come out of the blue if you just open season three with, hey, all these guys from last season had some beef with your dad or some running with your dad. And one of them killed him and took his watch. You know, I'm not going to get that far. But if they just kind of like tried to just drop all that in the beginning of season three, it would have been weird.

[00:27:28] Where here the whole time they're like, there's a reason Reese is brought into this. There's a mastermind. There's connections to all of this. And we haven't been able to put it together. Yeah. I think the phone call where the tip off that Oliver Gray's involved really gets Reese. One, it puts another person on his list. It's always fun when Reese has people to add to his list. But in this case, it's a list of he wants to know more about why the hell he's being targeted and what it has to do with his father. And I think that's a fun journey to uncover. And that's very terminalist.

[00:27:57] That really is such a defining characteristic of the book. And they got it. They captured it. Yeah, I agree. So after that, we get Landry to the torture room. Mo says that Landry helped him make that room. So it's designed to get you the hottest of hot and the coldest of cold back to back with extremely loud, uncomfortable noises of babies crying and boots, wheeling. Boots. Yeah, music that's repetitive. Yeah. Did you recognize that track?

[00:28:27] I didn't know what's teach that was. So that that track, I don't know if it's from anything else, but I know for a fact that that track is from 28 years later. I believe the trailer used that track for sure. But other than that, if it's from anything else, but for whatever reason, it's from the 28 years later trailer for sure. Huh. Yeah, I didn't know that when I picked up on it. Yeah, I meant to look up that speech just to see if there was some deeper significance.

[00:28:54] But anything that tortures Landry is good with me. I mean, they could have played Britney Spears on repeat. I'd be happy about it. Yeah, I'm just looking real quick. There's a poem called Boots. Like the first thing that came up was Boots poem Wikipedia. And then it's that same text. Yeah. Yeah. Whenever you look at like the subtitles of it, it is it is exactly that that song. So, yeah, it does have a deeper origin than just the 28 years later trailer, I guess.

[00:29:21] But what did you think about, you know, episode six really is the torture episode called Rats in a Maze. Yeah. We are watching Landry go through it. It had a viewer discretion warning before the episode started. I don't know how you streamed it had that, but it did. It did. I was like, OK, we might actually get what we're supposed to get here. I knew where we were headed. I knew something was going to happen that Mo gets his revenge. Yeah.

[00:29:46] I knew I knew the fact that Landry mentioned it in episode five when he said I was like, OK, either that's all we're getting of it. And this is a nod to the book or this is where Mo gets the idea. They went all in. They went all in. They did go all in real quick before we get to that part. There was one thing I do want to get your thoughts on. Reese has to take a break. He has a flashback. Sees his mom and his dad leaving his mom. And you don't quite get the full thing until the final episode.

[00:30:12] You know, I feel like they were trying to really slip in and get you to dislike Tom Reese. I felt the same. Even even though it's very minute. It's not a main story point. It's nothing groundbreaking that like Tom Reese was a good guy and maybe he's not. It's just this introduction to James's memory of Tom leaving. And you just kind of have maybe like a skewed view of it that does later get cleared up.

[00:30:40] That's what I was saying before about how it's so important in the series that there are these breadcrumbs because that's what the books do. As you're finding out picturing who Tom Reese was, what legacy he left for James, what messages and what totems, what artifacts he left for James and the meaning behind him. Yeah. So I kind of like that. That's why I was disappointed in an earlier flashback episode three maybe. And then this flashback, it's kind of like they're questioning is Tom Reese a bad guy? Did he leave his family? Did he abandon his kid?

[00:31:10] He abandoned his wife while she had dementia. Right. It can't be anything further from the truth how James revered this man, loved this man, looked at him as an icon, a hero. That's why the messages and the notes and the artifacts he left behind from the gun to the car to the watch. That's why they mean so much to James. So I was like disappointed in the show going with this. He left his family. I think they want to set up a James that doesn't. They want daddy issues.

[00:31:39] I really think they were trying to say I don't. I don't think so. So I think maybe they were trying to lead you down that pathway, but they really get get more. You get more Tom Reese in the finale. You do. And we're like the Tom Reese from the book. Yeah, I agree. I agree. But I don't know why they played with the audience with the first two flashbacks. I wonder if that was also what Jack's take would be on that. Because I feel like walks away not liking this Tom Reese from those two flashbacks from those two. Yeah.

[00:32:09] But if you finish it out, they're good. I think Andy and Vic. Sure. I think there's two thing. Well, there's there's one thing that has been popularized in in a lot of like narratives like this. And they did it. A really good example is is the Batman with Robert Pattinson. He has this ideal that his parents and his dad specifically was this hero. And he was there for the betterment of everybody. And what's revealed is that he was not.

[00:32:33] Yeah, he actually was a was a morally not corrupt, but a you know, he wasn't he wasn't as good as what Bruce thought he was. And so I think there's like this like wave of disappointment for Bruce in that movie. I think this does the opposite. I think that James maybe started out having a skewed view or memory of of his dad and they actually changed the timing from the book when Tom dies and how you know, it's OK

[00:33:01] that like maybe they didn't have as solid of a relationship. But now he knows why his dad left by the end of this. He knows exactly why. And I think it lets James walk away from this season with a better view of Tom than maybe he started. It does the opposite of what Batman does. I think that's true. I think that's true. I just I didn't get that in the books, to be honest. I didn't. No, no, I don't think that's there at all. It's like Tom Reese is like the standard of a good man. He's the guy. Yeah, yeah.

[00:33:28] I guess if you lean too heavy into that archetype, it just becomes. I don't know if that would hit with a TV audience, you know, if you just have this perfect role model father that he looks up to, like, what's the story to tell? So it's almost like they had to make it into a story that's going to have an arc. I'm fine with that. I will say overall, I'm OK with it. They went a little heavy into the Tom Reese stuff, forcing that early flashback.

[00:33:56] I was I was glad by the end Andy was able to give him the file and say, you know, your father was working in Argentina. He came because we called. Right. He answered the call of his country. There is so much in Andy's office. So much stuff. Yeah. But and that's episode seven. Anything else in six? I guess it's just the torture. I don't know how deep you want to get into the drugs and breaking Landry. And so, I mean, that's it's really, really. We can just go back real quick to how similar it is to the book.

[00:34:23] There's a couple of little differences where, you know, Landry wasn't in the agency at the time of the book. He's just former agency. He knows how stuff works. And essentially, he's so used to drugs. The drugs that Reese is using on him aren't working. So they got to go stronger and they get him to break in the way they they know he's telling the truth with stuff is how truthful he is with like maybe his first real traumatic crime he committed that caused him and led him into the Marine Corps. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:34:53] So from there, I think what I like the most about this sequence before we wrap and go to the next episode is they get what they need and at least enough to to for recent Freddie to move on. Yeah. To Odessa. Odessa. The problem is they leave Mo there with him and Mo is not a happy camper. And so Mo takes it a step further.

[00:35:18] Well, he promised Reese promised Mo that Landry would get or Mo would get the final kill. So yeah. So justice. Yeah. Mo Mo gets the piano wire out and unfortunately. Yeah. Unfortunately, lasso's something of Landry's and it does lead to a little bit more detailed answers for some questions. And I think if you go back and watch it, I caught it a little bit better the second time.

[00:35:45] I think you're I was so pulled into the moment of like, I can't believe they're doing this. I said that. I kind of missed Mo's very subtle nuances to his acting that the actor does. Landry's just like pleading and Mo's like thinking about it for a split second. He literally goes, I don't think so, basically, and gives it gives a stool to boot. Kicks the stool. Yeah. And Mo's fantastic in all of it. And that is a nice little touch. And I was shocked they did it.

[00:36:14] And I will say when reading the book, I'm imagining the sights, sounds, smells of this sort of circumstance. And something they did with the sound engineering there made it even worse than what I was conjuring up in my mind reading the book. You know, the sound of the flesh. And another thing from the book is there's like a split second where the flesh hangs on

[00:36:41] the piano wire before splatting down onto him on the floor. And I'm pretty sure they timed up the sounds to include that little extra bit. That was terrific. Real quick, when it comes to sounds the second time, I was like almost getting nauseous when they are getting Landry to like gag and gasp for air during an overdose. Yeah, that was pretty, pretty gnarly. I don't know. It didn't bother me the first time and usually wouldn't. But for whatever reason, second time I was like, man, this is rougher than I recall it being a couple of weeks ago.

[00:37:11] But it was my borderline where I said, is this just gratuitous? Like, yeah, are we just doing too much for too long here? It dragged on. I was happy to see brutal. I was happy to see brutal Reese come out for a moment and beat the absolute shit out of Landry. Season one terminalist kind of Reese. Yeah. Yeah. Station.

[00:37:41] That's a good question. It's probably this one. Just thinking about timing. OK. Or that is he have to. I want to say this one. And that was a brilliant little scene. Yeah. Maybe one of like the. Oh, no. He's leaving the prison. So it could be the last one. Was he leaving the prison? Where was he? He has the he has the files because he goes to pump gas and pretends to look through them. Right. Right. That's why they want to come out and follow him. So I can't recall.

[00:38:09] We may have skipped it if it if that's the ending of five. But if if we did a little thing, great, great scene. One of the funniest things I was watching this with a buddy and he was like, man, this is this is good. But like things are like a little slow. He's like, I really want things to, you know, get get get moving a little bit. And I knew what episode he was on. He was like halfway through it. And I was like, don't worry. Like things will things will get going here soon. And he's like, oh, so things heat up. And I was like, that's a great way to put it. That's a very good way to put it.

[00:38:39] I got a I got a text message later on. He goes, dude, I am dying laughing. And he sent me a photo of the dude of the guy on fire. And I was like, yeah, it was like it was perfect. So I do forget where it falls. But in terms of pacing and what your friend was saying, the interrogation episode, I guess six, the only time I felt like the pacing was just playing it out a little too long and we needed to get to something. Yeah.

[00:39:04] But you are then equally surprised when episode seven hits and we are in Odessa full on with recent Rafe liaising with the Russians, the Ukrainians, all the security forces. And man, let me tell you, if episode six might have been a little lower down my list of favorite episodes. Again, the interrogation was good. Glad we got it. A little too much of a good thing. Episode seven is award winning.

[00:39:32] I think they pulled off so much in an episode in one episode to do that entire scene to do Freddie strain's death. I was just so shocked. And the sniper v. Sniper battle. That was awesome. I could not believe how well they filmed. Everything was done thoughtfully because in the book, there can be confusion of who took

[00:39:58] which shot, which snipers were aiming at which people, who did then Freddie have to return fire with. They played it so perfectly and filmed everything with such little short bits of dialogue and also visual dialogue. They would use a small visual cue. For example, when you're looking down the scope and you're seeing the target and then that's coinciding within the speech, they're clearly showing the three presidents. Yeah.

[00:40:27] And they're panning left and right like they're visually making it so clear on stage who's left, right, center. Then they're matching that up with what the snipers are looking at down range and who they're focusing on. I just thought everything was so good. And then even Freddie and Reese's conversation, who goes down into the catacombs and who stays on the sniper, no one else would have been privy to that information. The snipers wouldn't have been privy to that.

[00:40:53] And even though the guard is there, who ultimately is a mole, Issei, I think his name was, the Russian security guy, he leaves the beacon to signal the snipers here, but he has no way to signal to them it's not Reese. Yeah. He can't tell them that. So I just thought everything was, that's a scene in an episode I could watch three, four, five times more. Yeah. It was every time. We missed Gray killing the importer exporter and then Rafe and the group trying to figure

[00:41:22] out what they had. And so what he ends up communicating to Reese and Freddie is that they're missing two Shaytac M200s, which are M200 interventions. They're an incredibly long range gun. If anybody wants to see more of that, that is the main gun that Mark Wahlberg uses in Shooter at the beginning. That makes sense. Yeah. That gun is like epically sought after in the firearms community. See, here's the thing. I know nothing about that.

[00:41:51] And they told me that when they're liaising with the Secret Service lady. And they're like, 2000 meters. We're good. We made a perimeter. Yeah. He goes, that's a two mile gun, which is pretty awesome. So he starts looking way out there. And what Freddie has is an Accuracy International XM or it's an AXMC, I think. So he's like kind of Secret Service gave it to him, right? But what's crazy is there's a dope card on it, but then the optic doesn't quite match up. Like it can't go as far as what the dope card has on it.

[00:42:19] So basically, Freddie even like verbally says this. And if you don't really like grasp what he's trying to say, like if you're a gun guy, you could be like, well, none of this makes sense. Like the dope card doesn't match up with like what he's working with here. And like, that's the point. He is like severely undermatched against these two foreign snipers with Shaytax essentially. And then there's also eight full kits worth of gear missing.

[00:42:45] AKs, Glock 19s, full kit comms and nods are all missing as well. I don't think they and this was I was impressed. Well, two things there. I I wouldn't have picked up on that. Freddie is not with his best equipment unless there was the liaise with the Secret Service. So that was just like a really good way to tell you that without telling you that when they're like, hey, get me a kit. Let me set up.

[00:43:13] I really liked how this episode is kind of show, don't tell. And similarly, I was wondering, what does Oliver Gray killing Dimitri or something? Tal basically finds Gray in Athens, which leads them to a port which has the container, which has the mob boss who he kills. I'm like, I want to see how that connects to Odessa. And I thought on the timeline it was way too compressed.

[00:43:41] I'm like, there's no way we can relay this information and have it make an impact with what's about to happen in Odessa. Yeah. They pulled it off because Wraith realizes when the container was open, they look at the manifest, they check the weight, they realize what's missing. And only by relaying that to Reese is Reese able to make the decision to go into the catacombs and stop the attack on the whole Russian hotel.

[00:44:06] The secondary killing a lot of their diplomats and other staff, which also then plays another role in Reese realizing it's an inside job by the Russians as a coup. Again, I thought that could be a stretch too far. But again, if you know this team has multiple snipers, it's got fully kitted out guys, send them to the Americans, hit the Americans, right? If you're Russian, you hate the Americans, hit the Americans, hit the Ukrainians. Why wouldn't you hit them?

[00:44:32] But the fact that they hit the Russians, now we're talking inside job overthrow. The way all those pieces were put together in a really short timeframe and still pulled off so clearly for the audience. It also elevated the show that I would say Terminalist season one, maybe Dark Wolf. It's not the most cerebral show. What I really like about a spy novel, but also a spy show thinking something like the Americans or I'm watching Tehran on Apple TV.

[00:45:02] What I like, it has to be a thinking man's game and you have to be paying attention to the small details. Something like The Diplomat I'm also watching. You miss one conversation or one wink or one nod or one little cutaway in The Diplomat, you're lost. Like you have to rewind it. I like shows that make you work. This was the first episode that really, I think, made me work in the Terminalist universe. Like you have to work to pay attention. Your eyes are glued to the screen. You don't want to miss a thing.

[00:45:28] I thought this episode was operating on a higher level than they've shown before. I agree. I think this episode, this episode is really good. I really feel like episodes one and two in theaters, like with Africa and everything is so, so good. And this is like on the action espionage side of things. It's equal. It's equal basically. Yeah. This one does the genre right. Whereas those ones are like the appetizer. Yeah. You're not quite there yet.

[00:45:56] I would say even episode three and four, you're still, you're still sifting and sorting and figuring out what's going on. It's why I like that shootout again in episode five with the terrorist meet with Moe Landry and Al Nawaz. I feel like it's, it's just upping the game to a whole new level and episodes one and two were cool. I raved about Africa last episode, but we didn't really get to the true believer of it all. Episode five made me feel like we're in the true believer of it all.

[00:46:21] And then episode seven was the icing on the cake and episode eight was a treat, which we got to wrap up with all, almost all new stuff. Almost all brand new, exciting stuff. All the on book stuff happened in episode seven, like five through seven. I know on book that it let me really enjoy episode eight going out on a limb a little bit. But I hope that as long as it's a series and you know, I don't know what they're going to do. They have a lot of plans for future season book adaptations and, and whether they're

[00:46:51] shows or movies or, or things like that. I hope if they're, if they're series and they always have to be eight episodes, they, they get to this rhythm that's like this. And what it reminds me of is game of Thrones where the penultimate episode of the season is the oh shit, oh shit, big one. And the followup is the, the aftermath. I do like though when, cause I was nervous. The aftermath episode was going to be all that. Cause like I said, show don't tell. Was it going to be all tell?

[00:47:20] Was it, let's put the piece together. Let's Andy Dan Reb was a nice surprise, but let's debrief. Let's have the sit down. Let's have the debrief. Let's have the family stuff, right? Freddie strains family, such an important part of everything. I was glad it was all that and more once you get the warehouse and the Andrenov hunt. So the helicopters, well, if we're, we're skipping a couple of things, tell me about what you thought of, okay. Two, two things.

[00:47:46] One, you realize why Andrenov wanted Voltstream and it was to get all of her great credentials to the site essentially. And what he was doing. Yeah. To get him to the event and be there. And I, I want to say from what I recall, the camera that Oliver has is giving live feed to the current, the kernel essentially. And the GPS coordinates, I think to the snipers as well. And he also has a cat. He has a Kestrel for doing windage and everything. I don't know if that feed is going out to the snipers.

[00:48:16] I think that feed is going to the kernel. You think so? That's, I mean, they, there was from what I remember, I don't recall seeing the snipers having any screen feed of closeup or anything. I mean, I could, I could be wrong. I, I know that it showed like the windage of the flags behind them and stuff, you know, their, their targets. So what first part of the question is, what did you think about like the reveal of why he bought Voltstream, which I think was to get all of her credentials? I think that's a part of it.

[00:48:45] I think it also was able to expand his presence. So he's more of a household name globally. So when he takes over the country, people have a lot more familiarity and it's easier to swallow than just some unnamed oligarch hiding in the shadows on yachts. I think he's able to put himself out there as a, as a personality, as a, you know, a media face. And that is also true because he's giving a lot of the press.

[00:49:13] He's, he's the face on Voltstream talking about Katie Baranek and how important she is and her story. It's all fake, but what he's doing is trying to, you know, garner sympathy and make himself more popular, probably to a global audience. But no doubt that will also reverb in Russia as well to, to gain more support. Especially maybe some more of the moderates who now look at this guy and see him as somebody who was not a hardliner. He ultimately reveals himself as such, but he's able, I think, to get a lot more of the country

[00:49:43] than if he just came out as your same old oligarch, same old Putin crony. It's going to be more of the same. I think he was using the media platform to appeal to a wider swath, swath of the Russian population and the global audience, making it easier to want to, you know, you know, install him as king, give him, make him there to the throne. So I think it served a lot of purposes, but I absolutely love Yana and Yana realizing when

[00:50:12] she's looking in the database and on the phone with Katie that, oh my God, I saw this guy. Why? How the hell did he get credentials? And then how the hell, why was it? And we knew when she was giving both of them weird looks in that when he wanted the photograph and they wanted to be alone. I was like, oh shit, she's going to spill the beans, tip somebody off here. Yeah. And it was even better than I was hoping for. I was curious for a while if she was in on it, if they were going to try to trust her,

[00:50:39] if they were going to try and do, do like the switcheroo a little bit where and Drain off is legit and Yana is the, is the problem. And they go to tell her the truth and she spoils everything because she's the bad guy. I was happy. They did not do that. I kind of liked how it, how it ended up. I think if they would have done that, it would have been too much of a, too, too many, too many things, too many moving parts. I think it would have been too many moving parts. I think you're right.

[00:51:05] But I needed Andreynov to, to either be better than we thought he was. Anything that was like smarmy about him, that was like raising, raising our, you know, our concerns. I needed that to either be a late and he really is the guy and he's actually doing the right thing and will push the peace process or 180. You needed all that to be fake and he's really the mastermind and he's got grand plans. So you had to go one way or the other. And Yana had to be the opposite.

[00:51:32] And I just love the fact that it came down to her ID and gray, which holy shit. She then also is the beacon for our guys on the chopper to track the convoy and know where he's flying out and how to hit Andreynov. Let me tell you something. The winner of this entire series, bar none, is that helicopter pilot. Yeah. That shit was awesome. Holy shit.

[00:51:59] That pilot, like that's Night Stalker shit, right? Like, yeah, that was pretty awesome. I also liked the, the, the Russian QRF that comes in. It's, it's a hind helicopter, which is a Russian chopper that you kind of see above. I really enjoyed the special effects of, uh, of this episode. So there's, there's this whole season has so much practical effects, which I enjoy far more than, than, than digital.

[00:52:26] But I think the hind overall was digital and its destruction was digital and they have fast movers go by really quick and, and kind of a blur on purpose. So you don't have to see them and they don't, they didn't have to work that into the Ukrainian jets. You're saying when the fighter jets take them out. Yeah. Yes. Which, but I loved how the, the hind blew up and fell. It basically in two halves was really cool. Um, I thought that was great. I also liked the effects of it's, it's minigun shooting through the roof.

[00:52:55] I want to say a lot of those aircraft, whenever they run guns like that, it's like every third or fifth round is a tracer. It's not every single one. And so you kind of heard more bullets hitting than you saw because that's how they actually operate. So that was kind of cool to see a little bit of detail like that brought in. Um, what did you think? I know we jumped into the action set piece, but what did you think of the, of the photography background where it's revealed that, that, uh, and drain of is Mishka.

[00:53:25] And, and we kind of skipped over that a little bit. I know that was a topic you asked if it might happen and I didn't want to spoil it, but, uh, you get, you do get a little bit of it, but it's not, I think they did it. They did it subtly. So yeah, I was glad you got a little bit of it. Kind of lets the audience put the pieces together. There's very little missing, you know, the main thing about their relationship, if you will, to turn gray and preying on his, uh, you know, his sexual tendencies. Yeah.

[00:53:54] Uh, but, but again, all that was not necessary. The, once I saw gray on the beach with the camera and then when the Colonel, when Jarkov gives him the Leica, I was like, this is doing enough to sell me that this guy has vulnerabilities. They've been exploited. He is all in playing ball for the other team. Yeah. And, and, and the Colonel has him around his finger. Like there's absolutely has him roped in. There's a lot of communication between the Colonel and Oliver over the phone. That's important.

[00:54:23] Like he even says, do what you do best, Oliver capture the moment. And that all goes back to being a photographer. Yeah. Going to photographer, buttering him up, making him feel better than he actually is. That he's got skills that he's worthy. And, and at the same time, what's the, the implicit message there is your country has not valued you. People in your life have not valued you. Whatever family or friends you have in America don't see that side of you. I do. And again, just like the sniper scene, they captured that in a, in a relatively short

[00:54:52] scene, a couple minutes, three, five minutes maximum. I know all of that was captured. I had a few people bring up and I kind of agree. I wish there was a little bit more development with bad guys, but we would only really be able to get that if we got 10 episodes and one episode was for bad guy development and then the other episode is a second Africa is the only way I could really think that this season could be better.

[00:55:15] 10 episodes could have worked to develop Zharkov and Andreynov and maybe play out this beach scene a little longer or a little bit more of gray working for them. And then the reveal that gray is one of the board, you know, he's at the boardroom. You could have developed Landry a little bit more closer to the book where he's, he's doing that stuff a little more frequently. I think they took time with Landry early on in the season. And that kind of is at the expense of this network of Zharkov, Andreynov, gray.

[00:55:45] I could see that. So it's kind of like the villain of the first half is Landry. He did. The villain of the second half is Andreynov slash gray, really more so gray until the final, final moments. Dude, I don't know. I don't know if there's another way to do it. And yes, final moments. Final moments. Yeah. The Winkler tomahawk comes out. To the sternum. Yeah. Not only the sternum, but if you watch it again, he like drags and grinds it and saws it down to like belly button area. Yeah.

[00:56:14] I love where they have the, the tomahawk mounted on the back of Reese's belt. They do it for Africa and they also do it for this scene where it's mounted, mounted in the back of the belt in the first season. It's more hanging from the sheath, which is how I believe that sheath is designed. At least that's how mine is where you can grab it and kind of almost punch away from the sheath and it comes out. It's really cool. Sheath like naturally it's made of Kydex and naturally has a springiness to keep it closed.

[00:56:41] So whenever you go to push away, it opens up and lets the tomahawk right out. It's really neat. So I, I, I don't know. It's just different than what I had imagined maybe from the book. And I like the show version a little bit better. It looks cooler. It's a little bit cleaner. It's not going to be smacking off a shit whenever he's jumping over fences and things like that. I liked it. It's like horizontal across the six o'clock of his back. I was just, what a scene.

[00:57:08] I, I wasn't sure where you were going to go in episode eight in terms of the action and hunting down Andreynov. If they were even going to get to him in this one or if they were going to blend it into Savage Sun in season three. Wasn't sure how they were going to tie it up. And man, did that action scene hit for me from chasing the convoy and the choppers to getting them inside the warehouse to leaving recent Wraith on the ground to finish the mission? I liked it. Vic really on the second watch. If you, if you have time, I know you have a lot of shows.

[00:57:36] If you go to watch this a second time, I grew to appreciate Vic a lot more in episode eight. The second time around. Agree. He, he was like straight out of the book. I mean, Reese delivers some lines straight out of the book of like, Hey, I'd rather remain untethered. You know, he doesn't, he doesn't really want to commit to, to it. Um, so before we get to like the ultimate ending that you and I both really enjoyed, I think let's talk real quick about Andy Dan Reb. Sure. Do you, do you, I don't know.

[00:58:04] I, I, I don't think you do because of how much we chat, but you don't play many video games, right? Uh, not anymore. My earlier years. Sure. So, so viewers and listeners, if Andy Dan Reb is familiar, if his voice sounds familiar to you and you play games, it's because he's Dutch Vanderland from Red Dead Redemption too. I was like, I know this voice from somewhere and I know I've seen this guy, but it's because of, uh, like Comic-Con videos and stuff of him being in Red Dead Redemption too. His voice is super familiar.

[00:58:33] If you play the Red Dead games, he's in both of them. Um, so he plays Andy Dan Reb in the books. He is basically like a Russian expert who works out of a closet slash basement at CIA. Um, and so a couple little things that I noticed on this rewatch was that, I don't know if you realize whenever they set up these sets, you know, you're getting multiple camera angles. There's about three to five in this whole scene in Andy's office.

[00:59:02] And one set is kind of, uh, the, the 45 degree angles that both actors, the desk setup is different than the other three camera angles. They kind of like change the books around. And so in one set of camera angles, Savage Son is a book on the desk. And in another camera angle, uh, Total Power by Vince Flynn is on the desk, which is cool. Was it Total Power? Okay. It's Total Power. Because that was written by Kyle Mills. All right. Yeah. That's after Vince's passing.

[00:59:32] That's actually, that book I think was 2020 or 2021. But it's on the stack there. There's a, there's a couple other books, but I couldn't quite get what everything, what, you know, what they all were. And there's even a, a cart full of books that looks like the cart from Shawshank Redemption full of books on the, uh, behind Reese. You can't quite make out what those are, but the one shot is unmistakably Savage Son on the stack. It's, it's like four thunder. And then the rest of what you see is just pages because the spines are facing the other way.

[01:00:02] And then on the next set of shots, it's like three, you can see. And then the bottom couple of books, it's the pages because the spines are facing the other way. So you do get some, uh, some Vince Flynn and some Savage Son nods there on Andy Dan Reb's desk. Um, and something that we get here that you and I discussed was the, the complete flashback of Tom leaving James and his mom. And, uh, basically Andy making it a little bit more, I wouldn't say okay, but he opens

[01:00:31] almost this new door for James that he didn't know was even there to open for himself. And that, that it's that Tom never stopped working for the CIA. Yep. Um, which I think maybe makes what James thought was a mistake or a bad move by Tom. Okay. They, they change his death to 1997 and in the books, it's like 2002, 2003. It's after, I want to say it's, it's when James is on his first deployment during the G watt.

[01:01:02] At least that's what I recall. Hmm. I feel like maybe that's teeing something up that they want to get pre nine 11 in the next season or two. I could be, I could be wrong. We'll see if anybody makes any comments, but I recall him being gone for G watt. But like, Oh, between Oh two and Oh three. And that is when Tom Reese goes on this operation and gets killed. And he, and he finds out about his father while he's deployed. Huh? Um, the other thing, I want to make a younger Reese though.

[01:01:31] And all the flashbacks, I think they want Reese to be a little younger and maybe they're teeing up a Tom Reese mission that had to come before. Yeah. Maybe. I don't know. There's another, uh, cool detail. This episode's called fathers and sons and there is a really, really cool short film called fathers and sons. Uh, that revolves around Tom Reese. Yeah. It's great. I want to say it has won awards. Maybe it's really cool. I was like a super fan who just made it and like sent it to Jack. Right. Yeah. It has actual actors in it and it has the echo.

[01:02:00] The, the Eccles legend in it is, is wagered for a pool game of pool and Tom wins it. That's right. In a pool game. Yeah. But from a, from another, yeah. From another former team guy. And it's, it's a cool little short film, but it's called fathers and sons and it's a terminalist short film. And this episode is also called fathers and sons. Yeah. And one other connection, cause so much about Tom Reese is going to be this watch. We see Reese with the pictures going to Katie and showing her and saying, does this look got a place to you?

[01:02:30] And it shows Oliver gray. He thinks wearing Tom Reese's watch and. I just, I think the breadcrumbs came full circle with that final flashback with the final reveal that thankfully Andy, Dan Reb got to give us. So I think it works. I think it also ties things up of why this whole operation targeted Reese and his inner circle. Like why they were pawns being, being kind of manipulated in this whole game. Yeah.

[01:02:59] And it is because we learned Tom Reese killed. Zharkov's brother, which was Andreyna's father. You know, he went to Southeast Asia and on mission. He killed Zharkov's brother. And so the Colonel wants to get back at him. And so while the Colonel wants to do all these other things and install Andreyna of his Russian president, he wants to, during all that rub salt in the wounds and you like finish off the Reese clan. And yeah, really get what's coming.

[01:03:25] And I don't, I, I, do you think that was a good device that all throughout the season, there's these little conversations of, but why me? Why, why are you involved? Why did they target us? Why did they use Moe? Why did they use Landry? Why did they use all these people that I knew? Did you feel that landed with, it was because Tom Reese personally hurt the Colonel. Now the Colonel is trying to hurt his kin.

[01:03:48] I think maybe, I don't know that it landed for like the first third of the season. And I think maybe it was, it was like a circumstance of like, Hey, we can still do this. And as a bonus, we get to hurt Tom Reese's kid. Yeah. And I feel like, um, you know, now it's going to be even more personal. I feel like maybe James was thought of as more of a bonus rather than the full objective

[01:04:14] because of the weight of the mission that they're trying to accomplish with Al-Nawaz and all these other aspects of it. Like just Al-Nawaz's terror cell in and of itself, you know, they could be, maybe trying to get the CIA to go recruit, recruit Reese. But how do they know that's exactly what's going to happen? The only reason they know that is, is Oliver being the mole and he can maybe steer that ship a little bit. But I think Oliver Gray maybe saw like, Hey, Reese is in play.

[01:04:42] Let's take advantage of this a little bit. Now the fact that he killed, um, he, he made the kill in the finale now being, being his equal as the son, I think the Colonel is going to be even more influenced to take revenge. So, yeah. Yeah. The other thing about Gray, I think it's also him maybe playing at a level beyond what he actually is capable of.

[01:05:07] Like when, if it's his ego that wants him to go after Reese, but he doesn't have the actual skills to put that together and see five steps ahead and respond or have, have the backup when Reese gets the drop on you or gets the upper hand or he's onto you. It's like gray played his hand too hard with the Colonel, him and the Colonel were almost playing a little too hard. And then you could see it on gray's face when he looks up and the sniper is not Reese.

[01:05:35] It's Freddie strain, which means Reese is elsewhere. Gray almost has this really worried look of like, Oh shit. Um, I need him to die. Cause if he finds out I'm involved in all this, he knows he he's, he's afraid of Reese. And so I think he was maybe just playing, he was playing minor league when he should have been triple a or something like that. Yeah. But I think that's, that's Oliver's whole shtick. It is. It's very, more specific, more specifically in Savage Son.

[01:06:04] It fits the bill to, to how Oliver actually is very well. Yeah. Also very terminalist going right back to season one. Something you got to get right is the effect on the family. And let me tell you, Joni and the kids on the tarmac at the funeral. What an absolutely perfect, perfectly shot and delivered scene. Yeah. Just the, the quick conversation between Reese and I think Sam is the boy's name.

[01:06:34] Yeah. About how Freddie loved them. Uh, combine that with Vic, then giving him the envelope that he, he won the prize, uh, the $4 million for taking out Al Nawaz from the Brits after the, uh, London attacks. Uh, just that whole sequence of everything and including Freddie and Reese earlier talking about Joni and asking, even when they're having their little, uh, show out on the gun range, when they're sniping together and he asks about her and Freddie makes a quip and I think he

[01:07:02] takes it back or he says something about, you know, family and he realized it hurt Reese the wrong way. Family was a through line through and through and for it all to come together to watch Freddie strange kids. Now, have you seen on social media how pissed people are that we lost Freddie? People loved Freddie and to have them ripped from us. That's good. Yeah. I mean, I know a lot of people who haven't read the books are like, man, I feel bad for anyone who likes Rafe in season three because anyone who's like buddy, buddy with Reese dies.

[01:07:30] And, and I mean, they aren't, they aren't wrong. I'm, I'm happy. It does kind of cease after, after that. However, you have to make the bad guys earn it. And boy, Nizar Catan is a name that haunts the series for books to come and, you know, isn't dealt with for, for a little while. And so I'm excited to see where that, where that leads, because I think it's just really good.

[01:07:59] It's not that he gets sidelined as a priority, but just other things come up that absolutely take over Reese's life. Yeah, man. This season had a lot of work to do coming off of season one. Dark Wolf set us on the path. They released a banger in Dark Wolf to really orient us to Moe and Landry and who's who and the connections that these guys had in another life.

[01:08:25] Then this season had to do so much to get us to the point where Freddie dies. Reese is back operating and he's willing to get the surgery. He's back with Katie. Her and Katie have a working relationship now in that end scene, being really vulnerable with each other. We had to go really far from terminal list Reese to end of true believer Reese. And to do that in eight episodes scared me. I wouldn't be able to see the creative vision of putting this book on screen.

[01:08:55] And thankfully, David DiGilio, the showrunners, all the writers in the room, all the creative genius behind this pulled off an absolute hallmark of a TV show. And I don't know if I was ready to say that after season one, but after season two, I could definitely say this deserves to be the top streaming show. It's always been, but now it absolutely cements its place. And I think that's only going to get the ball rolling to create even more momentum going into season three, which I, I pray and hope sticks to Savage Son.

[01:09:25] I really, I hope they do. They've already, they've already talked about Savage Son being next and not doing a spinoff. They talked about some Hastings, Rhodesia spinoffs, some Rafe spinoffs, some Tom, Tom Reese spinoffs and things like that. Savage Son first Savage Son is supposed to be next in line. And I think the best thing about the potential of a renewal is that within a day, this was number one TV show on prime within a week.

[01:09:55] It was number one between TV shows and movies on prime in not only in the U S but worldwide. So it like hit a whole bunch of different countries just for TV shows on, on prime. And then all of a sudden it was number one thing that they had a premiere worldwide across TV shows and movies, which is pretty amazing for it to hit number one within basically like what, what is this?

[01:10:24] Two, two weeks of launch. And all those categories too. Yeah. Yeah. And all those categories. I was thinking maybe in TV shows, we'd see dark wolf pop back in the top 10, just maybe like eight or nine, but I haven't seen that yet. It may have, and I missed it, but you'll see especially, I don't know why it always happens with veterans day. People go crazy for terminal lists for veterans day and 4th of July, the years that seasons have not launched.

[01:10:51] It's like crap, both shows have crept back into the top 10 for 4th of July and veterans day, which is pretty cool. I wonder if that's viewer driven or algorithm driven, if they want to capitalize on the patriotic sense, or if it is people going in and actually choosing and clicking these shows because of that time of year. I wonder which way that goes. Yeah. I mean, to my knowledge, the top tens are based on views and popularity and spikes in that. And so things will eventually drop off.

[01:11:19] But right now, terminal list is king at the moment, which is pretty awesome. Yeah. I want to say, I want to say these, to my knowledge, Reacher had like the biggest TV show premiere on prime and this beat it to my knowledge, which is pretty, pretty cool. I'm just extremely happy that this season is so true to the book and the characters and the writing and the story that I love.

[01:11:45] And this one, I think really, really delivers that experience to people who will only watch it on screen. Season one, I was a little nervous. I don't know if it would deliver the same kind of have that same punch that the book. Yeah. I think this one has that punch and more. And I think Savage Son, once you pull that off, you now just you made a franchise that is going to be around for a very long time. If you get Savage Son, right. There's a couple of scenes in there that, whoa, watching them on screen will break the

[01:12:15] internet. Yeah. I'm happy. It seems like whenever Reese at the very end last thing, he says, I'm ready. Kind of. I feel like Chris Pratt's kind of grown into the role a little bit more this season. And I also feel like he's a little bit more committed to the IP. Not that he wasn't, but I know that he selected that to kind of make in California and be able to be near home for season one and things like that.

[01:12:42] And I think he's kind of realized what he's kind of gotten himself into in a good way. And so I'm hoping he's kind of recommitted to the IP a little bit and helping push it forward. Yeah. Things are in balance because I saw an interview with David DiGiulio where he said, we damn near killed Chris Pratt on season one because every episode, every scene essentially had him in it. There was no other competing storyline.

[01:13:06] You don't really cut to a B or a C plot where here, Katie and Rafe could handle a lot of the filming or, you know, Oliver Gray or Landry and Mo. And so they were able to film a lot more scenes without needing Chris Pratt on set. And so they were like, I think that that kind of work life balance, if you will, or for Chris work, work balance, because I'm sure he's just off doing other jobs that whole time. Yeah. Worked out better this season, which I think is really important for sustainability and

[01:13:34] longevity, knowing that not every season is going to be the time commitment on him. That season one was that there's a path forward. I agree. And it means more Rafe. So yeah, more Rafe is never a bad thing. Yeah, I agree. I think ending it on James Reese's our true believer is pretty awesome, though. He is our true believer. Were you as happy with that final montage with Katie? Yeah, yeah, I was.

[01:14:04] I thought he really got vulnerable. I think that in an odd way, she knows him better than anybody else because of researching and doing the book. And I think that maybe in season one, she thought maybe he's the anti-hero. And now she's like fully committed to know he is the hero. And so I think that that pulls her closer to him. I think him getting vulnerable with her pulls him closer to her.

[01:14:32] I think the potential is there for it to follow the books, which I think that topic is something that we've always kind of questioned. Yeah, you're right. I'm sold on them. That was the biggest question coming out of season one and season two. Man, this this season had a tall task and it nearly checked off every box. So onwards and upwards to Savage Son. Let's do it, baby. I agree. We'll have you back. Well, how about this? We'll have Chris back. He has he has watched the show.

[01:15:01] He's ready to talk with us about it. Just couldn't make tonight's recording. So we got to get Chris's thoughts. I'd love to invite our friend TV from the Terminal Vengeance YouTube channel back on the podcast. It's always a good time with him. I've got a couple other Jack Carr influencers on the radar. And who knows? Eventually, maybe we'll have the man himself, Jack Carr, to talk about the show, to talk about his next book, even his next book in the targeted series.

[01:15:26] So I think there's a lot of fertile ground for the podcast to cover the Terminalist universe a bit more. But we'll definitely bring you our looking back. Once we had some time to digest the season, maybe another couple of weeks, maybe watch bits and pieces a second or third time. Bring Chris on, get his thoughts. And we got to give it a rating. So in case, Ty, in case you're not able to make that next episode, we hope you can. But just in case, what would be your letter grade?

[01:15:55] I think, I mean, letter grade, it has to be an A. Yeah. It has to be. Because as much as I enjoyed the first one, I know it has its issues. I try and talk myself through those couple of issues. And this kind of avoids any of those in a really good way. I think maybe for non-book readers, its biggest holdup is bad guy development.

[01:16:22] I think if there was maybe just a little bit better bad guy development, it would be just like, just awesome. I think you would have to watch it twice to really connect the dots and realize, okay, here's where this person came from. Here's why. Where it's like on a first watch, I really feel like if you're a non-book reader, the dominoes are falling. And you're like, wait, what did that domino say? And you got to pay attention because the dominoes are falling. You don't get a chance to really look at it.

[01:16:51] And so I think that's my only beef is for like non-book readers. But for book readers, both me and another friend that are big book readers and love the book, we already kind of knew the direction it was going. So when we start to see the nods or the information actually arrive, we're like, yes, this is exactly what we wanted. This is such a good book adaptation. But then I've heard from a couple non-book readers that that was mainly their own hang up. And I can absolutely see that upon my second watch being a little bit of a hang up.

[01:17:20] So I'm going to join you and we'll go much more into it on a, like I said, looking back episode. I'm going to join you with a straight A. It's dabbling with A minus though for a couple of small quirks that I think are magnified if you don't know the books. And a couple other things about maybe too big a smorgasbord of characters if you don't know the books and you haven't watched Dark Wolf. Yeah. So that's one of the only dings I would give it is that it's a little too interconnected

[01:17:44] to a little too plugged in to the whole breadth of the IP that it might make it hard to access. But I think it does a lot better job about drawing people in than season one did. So I'm going to curve it up to that A. Yeah. I think a flat A is good. I think they're really trying to keep referencing this, especially Dijilio as the Jack Carr universe. And I think they're going to get this to a point where they feel like this is not like

[01:18:11] anything to the MCU effect, but just that so many things are interconnected and affect each other. And I'm excited to see what that looks like as long as they keep kind of what they did here. And I know Chris had said that prior to release of like, we're getting rid of the unreliable narrator edge, which I did, which I didn't think was necessary in season one. And he's like, we're just adapting the books. And I was like, okay, well, we'll, we'll see. And love that. I think it was, I think it was great.

[01:18:38] I think that they're going to learn their lesson from this because of the reception of season one versus the reception of season two. Yep. So I think it, I think it has, it has the potential there. So, yeah. Well guys, you got to tune back in for that final follow-up looking back episode, get Chris's thoughts. But before we let you go, we have to thank our patrons, including our deputy directors, Sherry F, Bradley E, Crowley C, and Michael M, along with our special agents, Adam, Mike, Ben, Daryl, George, Matt, Dawn, and Chris.

[01:19:09] Please subscribe, rate, and review to all three seasons of No Limits using the Apple podcast and Spotify apps. You can find us on YouTube at Thriller Podcast. Please be sure to like, comment, and subscribe over there or visit our website at thrillerpod.com and on socials using the Twitter and Instagram handles at Thriller Podcast. And as always, just let Freddie be Freddie. To the lads. To the lads. Thank you. Thank you.