Chris and Mike break are joined by Mitch Rapp Ambassador and super-fan Brian Costello to discuss Capture or Kill by Don Bentley!
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00:00:11
Hey, guys, I'm Chris. And I'm Mike.
00:00:16
And welcome back to this week's No Limits the Mitrap podcast.
00:00:21
And we, we got a, we have someone special on the pod
00:00:24
today. Why don't you go ahead and
00:00:26
introduce yourself? Well, it's not Don Bentley.
00:00:31
Well, that's for sure. Hey.
00:00:35
Everybody so you heard our Part 2 episode then yes I did I'm the
00:00:40
person they they get you know this I'm like the cousins when
00:00:43
Bo and Luke Duke went on a contract strike and Duke's a
00:00:47
hazard and they're like well who can we bring in to fill this
00:00:50
episode and it's. Come.
00:00:53
On many steps below. No, not true.
00:00:56
You're trying to. Reclaim your title of most
00:00:58
appearances on the No Limits podcast.
00:01:00
You just want to stay is. It is it close?
00:01:02
Am I close now on the no limits? Podcast you were you were up
00:01:06
there for a while and then we've we've had Tyler Bouer on for.
00:01:10
Well, you have a. You have a.
00:01:11
Jack Carr. Yeah, you have a collected
00:01:14
universe now, I mean. You're the most on the Mitch
00:01:17
Rapod, yes? I know you when you were just
00:01:19
one podcast, yes. Not the Oprah Network, not the
00:01:22
OWN network of. Thriller Podcasts, The MRN.
00:01:27
The Mitch Rap Network. Yeah, I'm sure a lot of people,
00:01:30
though, are saying, well, if we can't have Don Bentley.
00:01:33
At least we get Brian. Brian Costello, baby.
00:01:37
Brian Costello, tell us who you are, how you got into the Mitch
00:01:40
rap fandom. I knew you as one of the
00:01:42
original ambassadors on social media and you even got a chance
00:01:45
to be on an official book tour doing an interview with Kyle.
00:01:49
Yeah, so I've, I, I realized this was 25th anniversary of
00:01:56
transfer of power July 1st 99. So I've been with Mitch for 25
00:02:04
years now. Wow, believe it or not, crazy.
00:02:08
So, you know, nice, cool quarter century, which is I'm not that
00:02:14
old. I started, I want to just add
00:02:15
that I, I read, I, I was reading Mitch as a sophomore in college.
00:02:20
So, but that's when I began my trek through the, the Mitch
00:02:24
verse. And then I was, I was an
00:02:28
original, an OG Mitch rap ambassador back to the, the days
00:02:33
of the survivor when Kyle jumped on.
00:02:36
And I've been one every year. And I, yeah, I got 2.
00:02:39
It was very cool. I, I actually got to be a part
00:02:42
of two of Kyle's book tours, one with gosh, I did in a both
00:02:51
virtual, you know, it's the world of virtual events.
00:02:53
So I was, I, I never actually got to meet Kyle face to face,
00:02:56
but he was been awesome, as you guys know as well, talking to
00:03:00
him. But yeah, I got to be on two of
00:03:02
his tours. I got to do 1 for when he was
00:03:06
his like New England portion of the tour.
00:03:08
I did. And then I did a like a last
00:03:10
minute fill in the day it was actually released.
00:03:14
Somebody got sick who was supposed to Ryan Stack actually
00:03:19
got it, was unable to do it and I stepped in And then I had him
00:03:23
last year for for my show. We usually do movies, but I
00:03:28
wanted to talk to Kyle one more time.
00:03:29
So yeah, I've been kicking around in this world for a long,
00:03:33
long time. So you mentioned the Survivor
00:03:37
and like most rap fans, we remember those dark days, you
00:03:43
may say, of not knowing what would happen with the Mitch rap
00:03:46
saga after the passing events. And when Kyle came, it was so
00:03:50
reassuring to know, you know, someone like him had the series
00:03:54
was after the Survivor. We all felt like, OK, this is
00:03:57
going to be all right. How would you compare that
00:03:59
transition, what we got with Kyle in the Survivor, to your
00:04:03
take on the Don Bentley transition and your initial
00:04:05
thoughts on capture or kill? Any similarities between?
00:04:09
I think the last time we had you on Brian was when we found out
00:04:13
that Don was going to be taking over.
00:04:15
We wanted to get your thoughts on that as well as kind of like
00:04:18
a send off to Kyle. So now that you've been able to
00:04:20
actually live it, go through it, let's let's hear your takes.
00:04:26
I you know, I think it was a very different transition in the
00:04:32
sense that obviously a lot more was known this time.
00:04:35
You know, Kyle let it be known that he was leaving.
00:04:37
We knew Don was coming in the last, you know, when the
00:04:44
survivor you, you really thought the last ban could be it.
00:04:48
And you know, nowadays I, I feel like it's now, I say nowadays,
00:04:53
it wasn't that long ago that Kyle took it over.
00:04:56
But I mean, it was about a decade ago, the idea of just
00:05:00
rolling IPS over to different authors were I don't know if it
00:05:06
was necessarily a given. So I think there was a big
00:05:11
question in my mind was that the final book that we were going to
00:05:16
get. And then you get the the
00:05:19
balancing act of, you know, do I want to see this character that
00:05:24
is so pivotal be written by somebody else?
00:05:32
So I think there was, you know, maybe more, I don't know the
00:05:39
concern, you know, am I going to be in on this at all?
00:05:42
Am I going to read half of the survivor and then say I'm just
00:05:48
done with Mitch, Not done with Mitch, but, you know, this
00:05:51
iteration of what Mitch is going to become, where is this time?
00:05:56
We've been through that transition once.
00:05:57
So I, I don't know if I was as concerned, I wasn't as concerned
00:06:04
as being able about reading somebody else's interpretation
00:06:08
of Mitch, you know? I feel like it's it's pretty
00:06:12
common nowadays, like you're seeing wildly.
00:06:15
Common. With, you know, the held a
00:06:18
Clancy verse or, you know, the ludlum, like all all of these
00:06:23
authors that you would never think would you know you you
00:06:28
their series with continue. It's it's now just becoming all
00:06:31
right. Everyone now gets a chance to
00:06:32
take a turn. And so IA 100% agree that now
00:06:36
that it's become more commonplace, you know, I I guess
00:06:39
we're kind of prone to think, all right, is is Mitch, is Vince
00:06:42
Flynn's series now just going to become this rotating, you know,
00:06:48
path for authors to take. And I also think it was slightly
00:06:51
different with with rap because if you looked at some of those
00:06:57
other people, Ludlum, he stole a lot.
00:07:01
James Patterson, still a lot. But you know, some of these
00:07:03
authors had already been Co writing books.
00:07:08
Nelson DeMille, rest in peace. Amazing.
00:07:12
He was writing books with his son.
00:07:13
Clive Cussler is a great example, right?
00:07:15
But but the time Clive finally passed, we had had so many Dirk
00:07:20
Pitt novels with Dirk Cussler, his son writing them with him,
00:07:25
that when you went into the transition of just Dirk writing
00:07:29
Dirk Pitt, you kind of already been there.
00:07:32
We didn't have that at all with Vince.
00:07:34
He was so young. His loss was so tragic that
00:07:38
everything was Vince. So again with Kyle and I had
00:07:43
read a couple of Kyle's books and I really enjoyed them, but I
00:07:47
was like, what's this going to look like?
00:07:49
We haven't seen anything like this before now come to Don.
00:07:54
I I think we've seen somebody else already do this.
00:07:58
I think we've shown or they have shown the supporting cast
00:08:03
around, you know, the rap publications, whether it be, you
00:08:09
know, David Brown and, you know, being able to advertise the book
00:08:13
or Emmy Bessler and the the editors coming through that.
00:08:17
They made a really good choice with Kyle.
00:08:19
So I think to some degree I was maybe less concerned than you
00:08:23
guys were when I listened to your episodes about like the
00:08:26
quality of writing, like that part didn't.
00:08:29
Because if you look at the makeup of the two, to some
00:08:32
degree, both had experience writing their own novels.
00:08:35
Both had experience working in other franchises and coming in
00:08:40
and being able to do that. So that, that piece, that piece
00:08:45
didn't worry me as much maybe. So I, I was just kind of ready
00:08:51
to roll with it. And see, I, I've only read 1 of
00:08:53
Don's books. I, I haven't read the Matt Drake
00:08:55
series. So my only interaction with
00:08:58
Don's writing was one of his Jack Ryan Junior books, which I
00:09:03
really enjoyed. And I just, I think that the
00:09:06
series is too valuable for them to pick somebody they didn't
00:09:11
think was going to be able to do that.
00:09:13
Now what my question is what that process looks like.
00:09:17
I have no idea how they went about picking Don.
00:09:21
I have no idea. Was that an open thing where
00:09:25
they were going around and saying, hey, give us a 50 page
00:09:28
sample of what your rap novels going to look like?
00:09:31
Or it would did he have to do that?
00:09:33
Was he just brought in based upon his work, his love of this
00:09:37
year? I, I don't know what happened
00:09:39
behind the scenes there, but I just think in this world that
00:09:43
they weren't going to go pick somebody who wasn't going to be
00:09:45
able to deliver something they wanted.
00:09:48
And, and I thought he did. I I thought it's a a really
00:09:51
solid Mitch rap novel. I found the Survivor as a debut
00:10:01
to be. I would put Survivor above it.
00:10:05
I I enjoyed the Survivor more than I enjoy capture the kill.
00:10:09
That's the big question. Right there.
00:10:11
But there's, they're different though.
00:10:13
There's a lot that goes into the discussion of this book that is
00:10:20
not an apples to apples comparison, maybe that some
00:10:24
people might do and even some franchises might do based upon
00:10:29
the subject matter that he selected for the topic of the
00:10:32
book and things like that. But I was, I, I was, I was
00:10:37
really pleased. I, I mean, he's a very good
00:10:40
writer. There's no, there's no, and
00:10:43
that's what I kind of like, not to name some other series where
00:10:48
I find like the quality of Ray. The Clancy series I think has
00:10:51
always been very good with their writing, but there's some of
00:10:54
these periods they spin off and the overall quality of the
00:10:58
writing I don't think is great. And I think both with Kyle and
00:11:02
Don, the quality of writing is at a very high level.
00:11:06
Yeah, I'll absolutely agree. And yeah, some other series that
00:11:10
they spread their tentacles too wide.
00:11:11
Too many different avenues let too many different people play
00:11:14
in the sandbox and and we didn't want to see that happen here and
00:11:18
thankfully it didn't. There is a torch bearer.
00:11:20
There's one person who can carry the Mitrap series forward, and
00:11:25
I. And as as we're recording today,
00:11:27
he just posted that he's working on book 2.
00:11:30
So we know that he's not that. I didn't think he was going to,
00:11:33
you know, get a two book deal. He wasn't.
00:11:36
Going to be a George Lazenby just on one and done.
00:11:40
Exactly. I knew he had two books.
00:11:42
I I'm curious to see what happens beyond that, but if if
00:11:45
his second one is like capture or kill Brian, you said it.
00:11:48
He absolutely deserved the job, showed he did the job, put in
00:11:52
the work and is a phenomenal writer.
00:11:54
And and that came through in capture or kill.
00:11:56
Chris and I were both skeptics going into it.
00:11:59
We were in, I think. Just because of our the baggage
00:12:01
we bring as these, you know, quote UN quote super fans.
00:12:05
Right. And, and Kyle did it so well,
00:12:06
you're right to compare it to the survivor in a sense.
00:12:09
We we can't compare it all that directly because Vince gave Kyle
00:12:15
the start to that story. It was very little, it was very
00:12:18
minimal, but it was, it was a chapter, but it was clearly
00:12:22
coming after a book that went in a certain direction and there
00:12:26
were things to be done. And you know, the last man, it
00:12:31
kind of left it left the story to be told.
00:12:33
And so I feel like Kyle, as much as he only got 1 chapter, he
00:12:36
inherited characters like Stan had to have his dying days on
00:12:40
page. That had to happen.
00:12:42
We had to deal with Mike Nash and what he was going through in
00:12:47
The Last Man. You brought Louis Gould back.
00:12:49
So I I think Vince was trying to say something about ghosts of
00:12:51
the pan of the past haunting Mitch.
00:12:53
And so I feel like Kyle had a framework and knew he had to
00:12:56
figure out what Vince's story what what, what story Vince
00:12:59
wanted to tell. But Don's stepping into a whole
00:13:02
different box where he can say, I'm going to make up the story I
00:13:06
want to tell, but pay respects to the universe.
00:13:08
It's not like Vince left that chapter or the characters were
00:13:12
in a place that clearly Vince had thought, I think something's
00:13:15
going to happen next with these people.
00:13:17
He actually had a gap in his story and I think Don was smart
00:13:19
enough to wiggle his way in and find a way in the timeline to
00:13:23
express himself while also paying respects to the universe
00:13:26
where Kyle didn't white have to put his own stamp onto it.
00:13:30
At first. Kyle really just had a AA1 track
00:13:34
mind of right of an story. The same story Vince would have
00:13:37
come up with in the way he would have done it with his
00:13:39
characters. And Don had a little more
00:13:41
leverage to put his own layer on it.
00:13:43
And I think he very well did that and still paid tribute to
00:13:46
what Vince gave us, minus Marcus Drummond.
00:13:50
I had to put that in there. I'm sorry, I had to.
00:13:53
Yeah, it it wasn't really until, you know, Kyle's second book
00:13:57
that we start to see that he's like, all right, I feel
00:13:59
comfortable with what I did. Now I can, you know, decide to
00:14:04
do whatever I want to now do you you see that what the next is
00:14:09
like a in the sense of trilogy, right with.
00:14:12
Claudia too. He didn't immediately do his
00:14:15
Claudia storyline until his second, third book.
00:14:18
I don't think he could have though.
00:14:20
And I do think there's there. I think they're in, I think
00:14:23
they're in different places. I think the level of skepticism
00:14:28
towards Kyle was probably significantly higher than the
00:14:32
level of skepticism towards Don. And and Kyle actually, I think
00:14:38
deserves a lot of credit in the way that he handled that
00:14:42
transition in terms of Don was on his last book tour with him
00:14:47
from all accounts was very helpful in in that transition
00:14:52
process, things that, you know, Kyle didn't have.
00:14:57
But I, I think the level of skepticism going it, like I
00:15:00
said, I was more skeptical of Kyle than I was of Don.
00:15:06
And that had nothing to do with Kyle not being as good a writer
00:15:10
as Don or anything, but it was just, is anybody going to be
00:15:12
able to match or come close to matching what Vince did?
00:15:17
And people shut him out. People didn't give them a chance
00:15:20
on social media. Immediately actually, you know,
00:15:24
I think the the push back in terms of reviews or any
00:15:28
critiques of Kyle's work were didn't have to do much more
00:15:32
brutal than what I've seen of, of this of this novel.
00:15:38
And people had their preconceived notions.
00:15:40
They they didn't. Review Kyle's work based on what
00:15:44
Kyle did or what Kyle wrote. They based on these preconceived
00:15:47
notions of there will never be another Vince, so don't try.
00:15:50
And I think that was not that was not a generous way to
00:15:54
approach it because Kyle put in the work he he did as good as he
00:15:58
could and it was phenomenal. And yet people still shut him
00:16:00
out from the beginning. And I think that's always going
00:16:03
to be like that when you transition from the original
00:16:07
author, one that is as beloved as Vince to a new author.
00:16:11
Like I, I could see myself being just like you, Brian, if if I
00:16:14
was actually like I had, I didn't read these novels until,
00:16:19
you know, I'd gotten them in College in 20, like 12.
00:16:22
But I didn't actually start reading them until grad school,
00:16:26
you know, And Kyle was already on his third book.
00:16:28
So I was, you know, I was just reading it and I didn't, I could
00:16:32
imagine that if I was put in a situation where I'd read all
00:16:34
those books, you know, from the beginning had built this love
00:16:38
for this author. I have.
00:16:39
And then I would, you know, I feel like now I'm, I'm having
00:16:41
that moment now because I was with Kyle.
00:16:45
You know, Kyle was like, I'm not putting Kyle's Vince with like
00:16:48
Kyle was like my Vince. And now I, I am apprehensive to
00:16:51
see it changed over. That being said, I think, you
00:16:55
know, you've listened to our first two sections of of our
00:16:58
review of this book. I I, I have no problem with Don,
00:17:03
you know, he's, he's, he's done great work.
00:17:06
And if you haven't read the Matt Drake series, I I'd highly
00:17:10
recommend it, especially, you know, book 4 is probably the
00:17:14
best thing I've read this year. Like better than both, No, no
00:17:19
offense Brad and no offense Don, but better than both of the
00:17:23
books that I've, you know, had that have come out this year.
00:17:26
Agreed. And better than the new Jack
00:17:27
Carr book. Like, yeah.
00:17:29
Yeah. So I I'm excited to see where he
00:17:34
goes next. I think it was, you know, that's
00:17:38
an interesting thing that you had put out there, like whether
00:17:40
it was this something that Emily Bessler was like, all right,
00:17:44
submit your everyone. You know, I imagine like typing
00:17:47
up an e-mail and putting like Mark Greeny and, you know, Brad
00:17:51
Taylor, Jack Carr, like, all right, submit your first 50
00:17:54
pages of your Mitrap novel. Go you.
00:17:56
Hell, even Brad Thor and Don's like, oh, this is an interesting
00:18:01
idea. Obviously he has a connection to
00:18:04
the story. It's a a weird like gap in the
00:18:09
timeline. And I think that's purely due
00:18:11
because of, you know, I'm guessing because of the state
00:18:15
that Vince was in during this time period.
00:18:19
So, yeah, I think it's, you know, it's very interesting to
00:18:23
think that, oh, this is this is like some idea that I put now.
00:18:26
Now he's got an even harder challenge.
00:18:28
You know, where does he go next? I mean, that's the biggest
00:18:34
challenge you might think the first books that should the
00:18:37
challenge. I would argue that Kyle's real
00:18:43
transition of the character in book 234 and why he was able to
00:18:48
carry it on was his ability to transition the series into.
00:18:56
What he wanted. To the next phase and the two
00:19:00
quarter to kill him. Yes to the to the Kyle Mills
00:19:04
rap. You don't really see it till
00:19:06
enemy at the state. It took him three books really.
00:19:08
I would say before you felt like he had his own voice.
00:19:12
Yeah, and I think that's perfect.
00:19:13
I actually think that works because you do need to
00:19:15
transition that. But he, you know, what he did
00:19:20
was really interesting because he has been able to make rap
00:19:26
relevant in the thriller timeline world with a really
00:19:31
dramatic shift. Cuz if you go to like hold war
00:19:34
thrillers of like the 60s and early 70s, it's John Le Carrier,
00:19:38
right? And then it was started to
00:19:39
transition into Ludlum. And then we get into the 80s and
00:19:44
then your, your 80s thrillers are Tom Clancy thrillers.
00:19:48
And then it's Vince kind of taking on that early into the
00:19:52
War on Terror phase. And I think there was a real
00:19:55
question even in some of those late Vince books, what is that
00:20:02
pivot going to be like when bin Laden gets captured and we start
00:20:06
to transition away from people wanting to focus on Iraq and
00:20:10
Afghanistan? And what Kyle's like brilliance
00:20:13
was to me was turning the series into a geopolitical series.
00:20:22
More than just something that was just tied to Islamic
00:20:28
fundamentalist terrorism, which is really at its point what a
00:20:32
lot of those, Yeah, a lot of those books were.
00:20:36
And he's, and he was delivered 3 or 4 #1 New York Times
00:20:40
bestsellers. And still I think you can put up
00:20:42
and you could say, OK, we have Jack Carr, we have Brad Thor and
00:20:45
Vince Flynn still in that discussion.
00:20:48
So the question is, what does where does Don go with that?
00:20:55
And I think maybe it's AI mean it's a little bit obviously more
00:21:00
of a guessing game now, because his first one is plugged into
00:21:04
the Vince timeline and it's it is is that what is Mitch's going
00:21:11
to be plugging, plugging him in and these kind of like one off
00:21:16
stories that fit into the history or of of the series?
00:21:23
Or is it do you revisit Kyle? Do they now say, OK, you showed
00:21:27
us you can write in the timeline.
00:21:29
Now you go write the kill shot, the end of that trilogy.
00:21:33
What does he want to do? And and the real question
00:21:37
becomes creatively, does he feel he could tell the story once
00:21:45
within within Mitch's world? Because I I think to some degree
00:21:49
that's what it got to the point with Kyle is Kyle wanted it
00:21:53
seemed that Kyle wanted to tell stories that weren't necessarily
00:21:57
stories that fit in Mitch's world.
00:21:59
And you know, what does Dom want to do if his date like you're
00:22:03
Matt Drake books are so good, you know, he gets to write
00:22:06
Mitch. But with writing, Mitch hums a
00:22:10
lot that it comes to the opportunity have the number two
00:22:14
book on the New York Times bestseller list.
00:22:16
But it also comes with a lot of other things and expectations
00:22:22
and things that you have to put into a novel and your idea that
00:22:27
you have, which might be a great Matt Drake novel, might not be a
00:22:31
great Mitch rap novel. And you know, and Kyle even
00:22:33
brought that up. I thought really well on his
00:22:35
last last time I spoke with him about that of wanting to bring
00:22:39
that character from Fade. And he's like, I think this
00:22:41
character is going to work better in the type of stories I
00:22:43
want to tell moving forward. So what does Don do with that?
00:22:47
And that's a more of a wild card than it was with Kyle.
00:22:50
He just kind of picked up and it's like, OK, we're moving them
00:22:52
forward. We're moving them into the 21st
00:22:54
century. Yeah, that's why that post today
00:22:57
about Don saying he's writing his his second book in the in
00:23:00
the Met rap series. I mean, it just whet my appetite
00:23:03
even more because I'm I want to just I want to know is it going
00:23:07
to be the sequel to capture or kill?
00:23:08
Are are we? Because I mean, we got to get
00:23:11
into capture a kill in the little minute in a minute and
00:23:14
and scorecard it. There are some loose ends.
00:23:16
For example, Chris, you and I had talked about prior to the
00:23:19
book coming out, wouldn't it be amazing to see who hired Louis
00:23:23
Gould and how that process went down to give him the contract in
00:23:27
the last man to get in the trap? And like, we didn't have any
00:23:32
hint whatsoever about that. But we know Rap just went on
00:23:35
this rampage at the end of the book, and he just made a lot of
00:23:38
enemies with the people he killed for Irene.
00:23:41
Is one of those people doing it as a revenge or does it go
00:23:44
deeper? And we also.
00:23:47
Didn't know mention. Of Rickman, Rickman, Joe
00:23:49
Rickman, who played a huge role in both Vince and Kyle with The
00:23:54
Survivor and The Last Man. He was very, very big in
00:23:57
Afghanistan and the CI as presence.
00:24:00
Irene would have brought him up. He would have had some
00:24:02
involvement in the crankshaft operation that wasn't mentioned.
00:24:06
So I'm wondering if that was intentional, or if there's still
00:24:10
a story to be told between Capture, Kill and the Last Man.
00:24:13
I mean, I really. Want what you want.
00:24:15
Can I ask that question? Like the nostalgia of this
00:24:19
interested me and and I enjoyed it from from that perspective,
00:24:23
right, that we got to go back to this, this Mitch and and I liked
00:24:31
it. I thought it was unique.
00:24:32
I thought it was an interesting idea, a brilliant idea in a lot
00:24:36
of ways. Do I want four more books like
00:24:41
that? I don't know honestly, if if you
00:24:45
had said Kyle after Kyle's first or second book, do I do I want
00:24:49
to revisit that time period exclusively for another?
00:24:54
The the reality is, I think if you're in that timeline and
00:24:58
that's what Kyle had done, just that book over four or five.
00:25:02
I don't even think bit rap still exists.
00:25:04
I think the character had to evolve and I know it involved
00:25:08
him in ways that some people weren't as comfortable with
00:25:10
because he got older and he had a fan.
00:25:12
But I I I kind of missed some of that stuff.
00:25:16
And I love that this one off plugging in.
00:25:20
I don't know if I want four or five more of these.
00:25:24
Like, let's plug in the timeline and let's see if we can squeeze
00:25:26
this in and let's see, because we know where this character
00:25:30
ultimately is going. So one of the things with
00:25:34
prequels is there's very little freedom.
00:25:39
There's very little freedom from true creativity or true
00:25:44
character development. Now there's a small pocket of
00:25:46
the ideas that you're saying. Whereas if he wanted to write
00:25:49
one more to bridge that gap, where is Rickman who hires Ghoul
00:25:52
and stuff? But does that become a novel or
00:25:55
does that become fan service? Yeah.
00:25:58
Does that become something? Does that become something that
00:26:01
we sit around here and debate what?
00:26:02
Hey, who hired Louie Gould? Is is that what is that the
00:26:06
theme or the idea that you want from a novel?
00:26:09
I just want a book that's man service.
00:26:12
And I always think of Christopher Mcqueary.
00:26:13
He talks about making the first Jack Reacher movie.
00:26:15
And he's like, I spent so much time.
00:26:17
We we had a makeup artist with Tom Cruise putting every scar.
00:26:20
We went through every book and put every scar there.
00:26:23
And nobody gave a crap about the scars.
00:26:27
Nobody even mentioned that he's like, is that what we want?
00:26:30
I because I do think he. Pulls too short.
00:26:32
Yeah, but I do think he pulled off in this one, like this great
00:26:36
nostalgic romp of going back to that and doing all that stuff.
00:26:39
Does it work if that's five books?
00:26:43
I guess that's the angle I take is less.
00:26:45
And sure, I'm coming at it from the fan service, fan nostalgia
00:26:48
perspective, but I also want to ask it from the angle of is that
00:26:53
the story Don wants to tell? Like, does he want to see Irene
00:26:57
further healing and Mitch talking to her about that?
00:27:00
Because that was such a a meaningful scene in the
00:27:02
epilogue. Does he want to tell?
00:27:04
Yeah. Does he want to tell Damian
00:27:06
Morati? Because I felt kind of
00:27:08
apprehensive about this Morati character.
00:27:10
But now I'm like, he's the new Ashanti.
00:27:12
He's got a back channel to Irene.
00:27:14
This could be interesting. Maybe there's more storytelling.
00:27:17
And like I said, rap went on this rampage.
00:27:19
I so yes, the fanservice angle would be a little like a little
00:27:24
tiresome. We don't necessarily need that.
00:27:27
But I wonder if you ask it from the angle of does Don still have
00:27:30
a, a story to tell in this time period with these characters
00:27:33
like Will Bentley? We, we can't go to the modern
00:27:36
day storyline and put Will Bentley back in.
00:27:38
And I would like to see Don wrap up his arc.
00:27:41
What does he do with Scott Coleman?
00:27:42
How long is he on the team? So I, I, I, I see your argument
00:27:46
on the fanservice thing. And no, I don't want four or
00:27:48
five books plugged into this particular time period.
00:27:51
But I do wonder, does Don have more story to tell at this point
00:27:55
in time? I I don't know.
00:27:57
I think it's a good way, you know, going forward instead of
00:28:01
having to come up because these these books, they have to come
00:28:06
out every year like they in a way, Simon and Schuster, Emily
00:28:12
Vessel books is such a a monolith and driver.
00:28:16
They need those New York Times, you know, best sellers every
00:28:21
single year. You know, it's, it's a business,
00:28:23
right. So one thing what I think this
00:28:26
does is, you know, we could be completely out of pocket on this
00:28:30
and, and everything we're saying could be moot.
00:28:32
But essentially you could go every other year.
00:28:37
You could do like a thing where, all right, one one year I push
00:28:40
it forward and the next year I go back and do like a little
00:28:44
vignette or, you know, a little insert story.
00:28:47
And that way it gives you more time to think about, OK, how do
00:28:51
I want to regress the story? You know, like, all right, we
00:28:53
can go back and do kill the kill shot prequel, which I still
00:28:57
think never will get done. But you know, you could do that
00:29:00
without having to like be, I don't know, because Kyle left
00:29:04
him left Mitch in such an interesting state that Don's
00:29:08
either going to completely wreck on that or, you know, thread.
00:29:15
He's got to thread the line. Like it, it's, it's a, it's,
00:29:17
it's a very tricky, I feel like it's a very tricky state to, you
00:29:22
know, move on with this character.
00:29:24
Well, I'm nervous about that too, because so many people
00:29:28
would have these ideas of, well, you got to start training Anna,
00:29:30
make her the next mini Mitch and or it's like you got to kill
00:29:33
Claudia off, you know, and and go through the whole Anna Riley
00:29:37
stuff again with her dying. And I'm just like, there's
00:29:39
that's a really hard thing to do is take Mitch where he is in his
00:29:43
like midlife crisis Mitch and. Keep him in the game, though, if
00:29:47
you revisit that. But that's what I mean.
00:29:48
And I'm sure he has a vision. I'm sure he, I would imagine,
00:29:52
had a pitch to get, you know, you know, he said his agent got
00:29:57
him this job. His pitch was the Bin Laden
00:29:59
stuff though I think. Yeah.
00:30:01
So I mean, maybe he keeps doing this.
00:30:02
My question is again, is that what it is, is a law of
00:30:06
diminishing return at some point to where you know, and, and how
00:30:11
you look at this again, great to go back.
00:30:14
We always think of it. I'll give you an example.
00:30:16
I love The X-Files as a show. The, the reboot came out and
00:30:19
you're like, there was like maybe 2 episodes in there that
00:30:22
was like, yes, that felt like old X-Files.
00:30:24
And the rest was just kind of like, I want to read about that
00:30:27
timeline. You know what I'm going to go
00:30:29
do? I'm going to read Consent to
00:30:31
kill. I'm going to go read Memorial
00:30:35
Day. I'm going to go read.
00:30:37
Do I want to just get it? It's almost like the flip side
00:30:39
of what I think Kyle starts running into, or you know, what
00:30:44
they run into with the Gabriel Law novels or any of these movie
00:30:47
and Brad Thore runs into, which is like these guys are getting
00:30:50
older and you almost have to stack every book.
00:30:52
Like last week I saved the world.
00:30:54
Now I have to save it this week again, because I'm already 60
00:30:58
and I I I, how many books can I be 60 in before it makes no more
00:31:03
sense that I can save this. But I do agree you guys brought
00:31:06
up, I thought a really like interesting point in the last
00:31:10
episode, which is like, would Mitch be OK not going in and
00:31:15
killing Bin Laden himself if he was there?
00:31:17
And it's like the balance of like young Mitch in this
00:31:19
timeline probably wouldn't be, whereas Kyle's Mitch, by the
00:31:23
time he gets there would probably be like, yeah, I'm
00:31:25
older. I don't think I'm going to go in
00:31:27
there and do that. So it is a balance.
00:31:29
But I do like, again, love the choice.
00:31:32
I thought it was really interesting, really different.
00:31:39
I I do wonder and I guess they can't do it.
00:31:43
If they had taken a a year off in between books, what would
00:31:48
that have felt like? Money.
00:31:50
But they won't, they won't and they don't need to and they they
00:31:53
prove they don't need to because they turned out a a really solid
00:31:55
book, good book. But but also I just have to say
00:31:59
like if somebody who reads the book, I mean this, you know,
00:32:02
these original ones that this spins off came out so long ago.
00:32:05
So if you're somebody who was reading everyone when they came
00:32:08
out like this flashback, you don't necessarily remember every
00:32:12
little single character and everything.
00:32:13
You have to remember. We've really gone in a very
00:32:16
different direction there. So as a book that is a an intro
00:32:23
to the series for someone I don't know, and it's also really
00:32:26
interesting for somebody who's never read the series.
00:32:29
Would you say to them now plug this Don novel in here
00:32:36
surrounded by Vince novels? Or would you say read it in the
00:32:40
way that it was let out? Because I think it quite
00:32:43
honestly, for me, this worked and I enjoyed it because I got
00:32:48
to go back to that and it was a flashback.
00:32:52
If I don't know how I feel, if I'm reading it chronologically,
00:32:55
do I just want to read this? You know, I don't know and I
00:32:59
can't get a test or answer to that.
00:33:01
So that would have to be somebody series.
00:33:04
This series has always had that issue you still see on social
00:33:07
media. Hey, I want to get into the
00:33:09
series. What's the first book?
00:33:11
And then the comments explode with the transfer of power.
00:33:13
American assassin, term limits. You could argue all three of
00:33:17
those are the first books. Yeah.
00:33:18
And I always believe you should read them in the the order that
00:33:22
they're written. Yes, I agree.
00:33:24
We've always advocated publication order.
00:33:26
I do believe some official lists that have been on the website
00:33:30
and whatnot do say American Assassins the first book and
00:33:34
most of those social media conversations end up with, OK,
00:33:37
I'll start with American Assassin because that's the
00:33:39
origin story. I think you lose something of
00:33:43
the the flair of the character, the feel of the character,
00:33:47
because that's not how original readers met.
00:33:49
Mitch was in American Assassin and you think of him as, oh,
00:33:52
this young lacrosse player. No, I think of him as the dude
00:33:55
creeping through the White House with Milt Adams.
00:33:57
Like, that's my Mitch. And now new readers would read
00:34:00
American Assassin and be like, oh, he's this young hotshot
00:34:04
lacrosse star, you know, who's making his way in the world and,
00:34:06
and fighting people at the farm, at Hurley's farm.
00:34:10
I don't know. So it makes me wonder about this
00:34:12
book. What would you tell a reader
00:34:14
who's going through the series for the first time?
00:34:17
Would you tell them to read this after Pursuit of Honor?
00:34:21
Probably. See, I, I, I, I think the stop
00:34:26
like the MM Nash stuff, for example, works better knowing
00:34:32
where Mike Nash ends up. That's true.
00:34:35
I don't. But again, we've all read it, so
00:34:38
I don't know. But to me, like one of the
00:34:43
really big elements of the book that worked for me and there
00:34:46
were some that didn't, but the Mike stuff worked for me.
00:34:50
But it it worked because how it informs where Mike goes as a
00:34:55
character, I'm not sure you're so into this character if you're
00:35:00
reading it wedged in between where it was.
00:35:04
I think it fits. It works, but I don't think it
00:35:08
has the draw that it does for us, knowing where his end story
00:35:14
is and going back and and looking at like the tragic
00:35:18
elements of that downfall. In, in terms of Mike Nash, this
00:35:24
book makes enemy at the gates even better and make more sense
00:35:28
and enemy at the gates and and this book is made better because
00:35:32
of enemy at the gates. I think the Don and Kyle, the
00:35:35
biggest like kind of interplay they've had with what they've
00:35:38
done or like how they've played off each other in a sense, is
00:35:42
comparing those two books capture, kill and animate the
00:35:44
gates. And it's crazy because they're
00:35:45
like what, 12 or more books apart in terms of the, the
00:35:50
chronological order of the series, yet they're so
00:35:52
interconnected. I I think that's pretty
00:35:54
brilliant. Well, and Mike's also one of
00:35:56
those interesting ones that, you know, I feel like the Scott
00:36:01
Coleman character increased in relevance and everything with
00:36:06
with Kyle, you know, a. 100%. Kyle clearly liked writing
00:36:11
Scott. I think Scott as a part of the
00:36:15
story became more and more relevant or more and more
00:36:18
important as the series went on for him in really significant
00:36:24
ways. And some of the novels, if you
00:36:26
go back and and and think about what Kyle did, you know, is, you
00:36:31
know, if Don stays in a window of earlier Mitch, do we get more
00:36:35
of that Mike Nash character and explore him more in that window
00:36:43
of time that I I mean, you don't know, you don't like what
00:36:49
characters does Don connect to, you know, in ways, you know, who
00:36:57
are going to be, you know, we saw him create some characters.
00:37:00
You know, Kyle created a bunch of characters.
00:37:03
Is he going to go that route? So it's, it's tough off of 1 to
00:37:08
judge that, but I do think I found that part of the book
00:37:12
really interesting. And again, I'm not sure I I
00:37:15
would have in chronological order.
00:37:19
I again, I think they do play so well off each other.
00:37:21
Mike Nash is really fascinating when you think about him because
00:37:24
I think Mike Nash is a character and and what happened with Mike
00:37:29
and what Vince did with Mike, he it might have been like 7 or 8
00:37:35
years too early and I don't think Vince would have ever been
00:37:38
into this. But there's nobody can tell me
00:37:40
without a shadow of a doubt now that in the modern publishing
00:37:44
world, they would have spun Mike Nash off into like a Jack Junior
00:37:48
series or one of the you know what I mean.
00:37:50
And the president he he, but he would have had his own he would
00:37:53
have had his own books and still been in the.
00:37:55
Rapid Dempsey series with. I, I think with I now, I don't
00:37:59
know to be clear if that's something Vince would ever have
00:38:01
been cool with or the the estate or whatever.
00:38:04
But I think in this modern world, if you look what they're
00:38:06
doing, like Hustler does with all these people, do they all do
00:38:09
it? There's 1000 different series
00:38:10
and they kind of start. He would have been there because
00:38:13
his character and Scott and Kyle was able to do do really well
00:38:19
with Scott to not have this. The problem with Mike Nash is
00:38:22
he's always second fiddle. He either has to be second
00:38:25
fiddle to Mitch. And let me ask you this, do you
00:38:28
want to see Mitch doing something or do you want to see
00:38:31
Mike Nash doing something? You want to see Mitch doing?
00:38:33
Something Mitch punches him twice in the first two books.
00:38:36
Mitch knocks him out. But then you put him into the,
00:38:40
the CIA side and I ask you this, do you want to see Mike Nash
00:38:44
some doing something or do you want to see Irene Kennedy doing
00:38:47
something? And I don't that as a result, I,
00:38:51
I, I think it makes sense why that character started to fall
00:38:55
off because it's where is the excitement to write that
00:38:59
character? But I I did enjoy him in a way
00:39:03
in this book, but I hadn't enjoyed him in a really long
00:39:05
time because of knowing where he goes.
00:39:10
So I like the whole whatever Mike can do, Mitch can do
00:39:13
better. Whatever Mike can do, Irene can
00:39:14
do better argument. 100% true. And it makes it so hard to
00:39:18
really have them carry the day. MY1 counterpoint would be, and I
00:39:23
think we've said this on the pot quite a bit in our earlier
00:39:25
books, is he's the family man. And that adds that interesting
00:39:30
component of he has and has a chance to have everything Mitch
00:39:35
never could or what was stolen from Mitch.
00:39:38
And same with Scott Coleman. Scott Coleman, maybe he dreams,
00:39:41
he has some flings, he has some dreams about girls riding on
00:39:43
tractors and whatnot, you know, Russian agents.
00:39:45
But Scott Coleman never really settles down, has a family.
00:39:48
So I like that Mitch brought that element to it.
00:39:52
I almost think Vince saw a little bit of himself and Mike
00:39:55
Nash the way he wanted to have this career, but also, you know,
00:40:00
raise a family and to put Mike in those shoes and have Mitch
00:40:03
have to deal with it and and kind of defend him.
00:40:07
And that meant sidelining him, which meant.
00:40:10
Tearing their relationship apart.
00:40:11
But I think if you asked Mitch, he'd say, I'm giving Mike a
00:40:15
chance to have what I never had. But that ended up driving Mike
00:40:19
Nash to madness and ultimately suicide.
00:40:21
So I think all that is great storytelling.
00:40:23
But you are right that there are so many other characters who
00:40:25
overshadowed him. So Mike is really, really hard
00:40:28
to write. And I thought he did great.
00:40:30
I think that that's one of the stand out things for me, that
00:40:32
that character I thought was, was written very well.
00:40:36
Yeah, yeah. I also thought that, you know,
00:40:41
yeah, we can, you know, we're kind of like talking about good
00:40:43
guys in in a sense, so bringing up the scorecard.
00:40:46
But I thought that just like Kyle Don, Don seemed to write
00:40:52
Scott pretty well too. I think that was a player that,
00:40:55
you know, every everything that I wanted Don to do.
00:41:00
He he did well, you know, he brought in the team except for
00:41:02
calling Marcus DuMont, Marcus Drummond, like, you know, but I
00:41:08
even tried to argue, you know, a sort of against myself, against
00:41:11
Martini to say like, all right, at least I don't want to say
00:41:15
this, but look, at least he tried Like he, he I feel like he
00:41:17
brought Marcus in in a situation where which made sense to bring
00:41:20
him in. You know, it'd be like in Brad's
00:41:25
series, you you need the troll to come in to do some sort of
00:41:27
computer thing like all right, well, we're going to do that.
00:41:31
I think it ultimately fell flat because you you got the name
00:41:34
wrong. But yeah, so I guess to sum up
00:41:39
what I'm trying to stutter here, the in terms of good guys, I I
00:41:44
got to go like I got to go super high here.
00:41:47
It's like it's it's a solid like four and a half 50.
00:41:49
And Stan? Well.
00:41:50
Great Stan cameo great so. If you I went back and I read
00:41:54
Stan because. It reads better.
00:41:57
It reads way to better. I don't know if you listen to
00:41:59
audiobooks, Brian. No, I tend to.
00:42:01
I just tend to read. Yeah, we, we have a love hate
00:42:05
relationship with Stephen Weber because we've I've listened to
00:42:09
him as an author on a couple other series and I think he does
00:42:13
a great job. I don't know if you've read the
00:42:16
TJ Newman books all all about like thrillers on planes,
00:42:21
essentially. He does a great job with that
00:42:24
series. And I've, I've read them in some
00:42:27
other sci-fi things, but last year I, I, I couldn't, I could
00:42:31
barely even couldn't suffer through code red with, with him.
00:42:37
And then this year it got a little bit better.
00:42:39
But you know, you, you get this introduction of Stan at the end.
00:42:44
You're like, oh, when, when is he going to come in?
00:42:45
When is he going to come in? And he come, he's coming out of
00:42:47
this car and it just falls flat with his voice.
00:42:50
So I had to go back and because I wanted to, I didn't want to
00:42:54
Ding that towards Don being, you know, this character's
00:42:58
interpretation of of this character.
00:42:59
And I went back and I read it and like Mike, you're 100%
00:43:02
correct. It reads amazing.
00:43:04
I feel like he, you know, bringing him in makes sense that
00:43:07
the stuff he says that the, you know, the actual dialogue that
00:43:10
he puts in Stan's mouth. Great good guys.
00:43:14
High score for me. Sure, agreed.
00:43:16
Agreed. The first category is action.
00:43:19
We got 10 points, Brian, for action.
00:43:22
If we can each go around the horn, say what we score, capture
00:43:25
or kill on action and maybe shout out your favorite action
00:43:29
scene. See if we all are on the same
00:43:30
page or if we all pulled out different Nuggets that we liked
00:43:33
all. Right, you want me to go first?
00:43:36
Yeah, kick it off, Yes. So I was probably like an 8,
00:43:39
maybe 8 1/2 on action. I thought the action was was
00:43:42
very good. I'm probably going to go the the
00:43:48
airplane scene like in the plane on the tarmac.
00:43:54
Yeah, On the tarmac my my only thing that I'm somewhat leery on
00:44:00
the action and it was a lot of the early, I think you guys were
00:44:04
higher on the book early than I was the first half the book.
00:44:09
It felt a little Planchy Clancy like to me that all the call
00:44:16
sign, and I know that's what Don does and that could be what he
00:44:18
brings to it, that you know, there's going to be some
00:44:21
stylistic changes to it. It's way more military heavy
00:44:24
than. Very military heavy and you
00:44:26
know, not that Mitch books don't have that element, but there is
00:44:32
a difference between the Clancy style and the Flynn style.
00:44:35
And I think the Flynn style has always been more accessible to
00:44:41
someone who doesn't have any military experience or any
00:44:45
professional experience. And, and I got to it's just that
00:44:50
little twinge when I first read and it got better and better,
00:44:52
but that was like one of my first things.
00:44:54
I was like, wow, this really with all the call signs and the
00:44:57
and it's super cool. I get it, but they don't.
00:45:01
There's just, there's something about it that that I'm going to
00:45:04
have to get used to if that's how he's going to have to do and
00:45:06
that's fine. You know, I mean that's his
00:45:08
style and you need somebody, you know, otherwise let's just give
00:45:11
it to an AI and say write me events like there.
00:45:14
There has to be something stylistic that's a little bit
00:45:16
different. Once I got over that piece of
00:45:19
it, which was early and some of the other things I I really did
00:45:22
enjoy that the action in it. That would be the biggest, I
00:45:26
think biggest shocker or out of series you know, take you out of
00:45:29
it. If you are reading this through
00:45:31
for the first time and you read this one after pursuit of honor
00:45:35
other the military jargon, code names, call signs, radio
00:45:38
chatter. Would seem amount of times
00:45:40
helicopters are mentioned. Man, I get it.
00:45:43
He flies and he loves them. I mean, this is this is all this
00:45:45
is like the Top Gun Maverick for helicopter pilots is his love
00:45:50
letter to helicopters. I mean, every helicopter, if
00:45:54
there was a helicopter, I thought he was going to like
00:45:56
start having Mitch on. Like the Da Vinci helicopter,
00:45:59
like that was designed during the Renaissance time period.
00:46:03
He imagined the opters if Don goes back to modern day Mitch.
00:46:07
Don getting to write a Fred Mason scene.
00:46:10
Oh, I mean he's going to be and listen, by the way, Wow, they
00:46:13
were really good. But I was like there are they
00:46:15
were great. There's got to be more
00:46:16
helicopters in this movie. That book then maybe 10 Mitch
00:46:20
Trap novels combines. If Don does go back and write
00:46:24
something like plugging in to an older time period to get an
00:46:28
early Fred Mason cameo would be so cool because that's a
00:46:32
character Kyle invents way later in the future.
00:46:35
So that'd be that'd be cool to get some roots from Fred Mason
00:46:41
action. I'll, I, I will defend the
00:46:44
beginning of the book a little bit, but I'll say,
00:46:46
unfortunately, halfway through, some of the stuff that happened
00:46:50
in the beginning that we were so high on didn't really connect
00:46:55
like saving Ranger Sexton and, and going into The Cave complex
00:46:59
to get him. It was so much fun while we were
00:47:01
reading it. And then it just had a very,
00:47:04
very loose connection to the Iranians and everything else
00:47:07
that one of the Iranians was there for the arms deal or, or
00:47:11
the hostage deal. It was going to purchase the
00:47:13
guy. So I am going to say my favorite
00:47:15
action scene was everything that led up to the Ranger rescue when
00:47:18
Mitch went undercover as Fareed Saeed, when he had the, the fake
00:47:23
breakout and Scott's team fired on them with the, with the fake
00:47:26
bullets and everything. And Mitch runs off it with, with
00:47:30
the, the terrorist guy. He's holding him and he runs off
00:47:32
onto the trail and they escaped together.
00:47:35
And now he's deep undercover penetrating as Fareed Saeed.
00:47:38
And he's getting caught up in the hostage negotiation and,
00:47:42
and, and he's trying to track down who this Iranian guy is
00:47:45
that he's meeting with. And, and the Iranian guy goes,
00:47:47
you're the Angel of death. Don't trust him.
00:47:49
I thought that was the pinnacle of action and suspense for me.
00:47:52
Unfortunately it didn't really connect to much else later on,
00:47:55
but I liked it so 8. I'm also an 8 Brian on action.
00:48:00
And we've seen that with, you know, Vince did that all the
00:48:03
time where like it, you know, you, you kind of get these like
00:48:05
2 books in one where like you, you have a story and they only
00:48:09
like tangentially relate. Sometimes others work better
00:48:14
than others. I feel like this was more on the
00:48:16
positive than the negative side. So for me, the action, you know,
00:48:20
I'm, I'm sort of right around the same 88 and 1/2.
00:48:25
I really like the furried stuff. I, I think I'm going to have to
00:48:30
go with the end, you know, that the, I really like the, the
00:48:36
action on the tarmac. But like when once we, we, we,
00:48:39
we, we pull a guy out of the airplane to fly this, you know,
00:48:42
steal this helicopter, You know, we're we're racing towards, you
00:48:47
know, helping these that I'm just imagining in my head like
00:48:51
Zero Dark 30 is just playing, you know, Chris Pratt is on, on
00:48:54
that helicopter going out. We have to make sure he doesn't
00:48:57
go down or Mitch has not we Mitch has to make sure he
00:49:00
doesn't go down, you know, and then you get the introduction,
00:49:04
Stan Hurley. So, you know, I, I feel like we
00:49:07
we each kind of picked the three, probably the three breast
00:49:10
action sequences of the novel. So.
00:49:13
Can can I ask you a question? I I don't know if Kyle or Vince
00:49:17
or anybody would have done this. Would you have been more
00:49:18
intrigued of the tension if he had been inner cutting elements
00:49:25
of the copter going to there as a back and forth?
00:49:32
Do I mean like they're getting on the helicopter, You have
00:49:34
those people going and then you're cutting to Mitch doing
00:49:37
this and cut like I you know, I think the bin Laden yes, I
00:49:42
always think of things in terms of movies if you.
00:49:45
Were making a movie, you would have to do that.
00:49:48
You would, you would show that and I was just, I was like, and
00:49:51
that's where it's interesting. Like you know how sometimes you
00:49:53
do Part 1 of a book, Part 2, Part 3.
00:49:56
I, I know that's not, but this feels more segmented in that
00:50:02
way. Like there's like the the middle
00:50:04
portion and then it's there and it's, it's almost like a like
00:50:09
ATV series that ran over 16 episodes and you have like a
00:50:14
there's a through line through all of them.
00:50:16
But even 24, like when 24 used to do it right, there was that
00:50:19
through line all along. But every few episodes there was
00:50:22
like that arc that was going there and, and we see that
00:50:26
through this novel, I think. And so.
00:50:28
It's like ATV season that has three mini arcs within it. 5
00:50:32
episode mini arcs, you know, in three of them in a season, yeah.
00:50:36
And they are connected. I, I they are connected.
00:50:38
I do like the idea of being on the, the bin Laden raid would
00:50:41
have been kind of cool, but it does kind of by not being on
00:50:46
board those choppers or not hearing the the operators
00:50:48
planning and and prepping for that, It does let us know Mitch
00:50:52
is operating wholly outside of it and he has to be that shadow
00:50:55
figure to save the. Day.
00:50:56
I was just curious if people's thoughts.
00:50:58
On that. But you know, what really I
00:51:00
think caused me not to even think about that is that we got
00:51:04
to be in the situation room and we got to go into the little
00:51:07
conference where the Hillary Clinton picture and the Obama
00:51:10
picture of them watching the screen.
00:51:12
And now it's Irene Kennedy and the president doing that.
00:51:15
I just thought that was super cool when that little scene was
00:51:18
dropped of of them all being in the conference room watching the
00:51:21
operation spin up. They.
00:51:23
It probably pulls you out of the tension that's there.
00:51:26
So I mean which? Is Don is why Don's a better
00:51:28
writer? Than I am, yeah.
00:51:30
All this goes into plot, though. I mentioned the Ranger Sexton
00:51:33
plot in the beginning, saving him.
00:51:35
We had the Farid Saeed and he was on that other hit.
00:51:38
He was supposed to assassinate another guy.
00:51:40
He gets pulled out. Fairbanks, Fairbanks.
00:51:43
And then the story kind of picks up with the the summit, the Mike
00:51:47
Nash going to the diplomatic summit, the security meet.
00:51:51
How do you feel all that wove together as a plot?
00:51:54
Brian, what's what's your plot take on this book?
00:51:58
Maybe like this is out of 10 right?
00:52:00
Out of 10? Yep.
00:52:01
Seven. Yeah.
00:52:04
Seven parts of it. I loved parts of it.
00:52:08
I mean, on the whole, I I thought the books really
00:52:10
enjoyable. There's parts of it that really
00:52:12
worked for me. Other parts that I thought I was
00:52:17
slightly confused at times and I'm not sure why that was.
00:52:21
Maybe it was just getting my mindset back into like what was
00:52:24
happening here, but there was a lot of like, why was why was he
00:52:28
using this guy as a cut in like, do we need that?
00:52:32
And you guys brought up in the last one.
00:52:33
I was really confused when Mitch all of a sudden's on like the
00:52:36
mountain, like I, I was like, I had to go back actually and read
00:52:40
it again. I was like, that's way to jump
00:52:44
in a novel. Moment.
00:52:46
Sometimes in a film you'll make that jump, but not as much in a
00:52:52
novel. And then it's like there was
00:52:54
this element of Mitch then shows up and he's part of the
00:52:57
crankshaft thing and he's having a doctor, but then they're
00:52:59
driving off to deal with this and.
00:53:01
Meter made, Mitch. Yeah.
00:53:04
So I mean, I, I do think in I do think it all did like how he
00:53:10
landed. It was really interesting with
00:53:12
the missiles and it all tied up. But is 7, which I mean, there,
00:53:20
there are many ones that that sometimes the plot of these
00:53:25
leave little things open. But yeah, I would say it
00:53:29
probably A7 for me, yeah. It's fair.
00:53:34
I think I would land out of seven.
00:53:37
I'm I'm with you on that. I'm going to give it.
00:53:39
I'm going to give it a one point boost because of the missile
00:53:42
technology. When we had the opening scene
00:53:45
with the demonstration, I'm like, what is this about?
00:53:48
And then we found out it's the missiles.
00:53:49
I'm like, OK, interesting. And then when I finally realized
00:53:53
those are the missiles that could tank the bin Laden raid
00:53:56
and kill our Seals, I was like, Oh my God, and have Mitch save
00:54:00
the day that way. And I was nervous Mitch was
00:54:03
going to save the day by storming the Abatabad complex
00:54:05
and going in and getting bin Laden himself.
00:54:08
And the fact that that didn't happen and we stayed true to the
00:54:10
missile plot and that was what Mitch had to stop, I think that
00:54:14
earns me that extra point to go up to an 8.
00:54:16
But I agree completely with what you said there.
00:54:18
There were some gaps. Yeah, I'm, I'm kind of in the
00:54:23
middle of you too, so I guess I'll split the difference into a
00:54:25
7.5. I I feel like the beginning
00:54:29
part, well, yeah, it was great. The action was great.
00:54:31
But when I finished. Yeah, you said it was it is it
00:54:35
is connected, but I felt like those threads were a little bit
00:54:39
loose and the middle part lost me at times.
00:54:43
You know, the, I, I guess I was supposed to really feel for that
00:54:48
Noreen character, but I, I, the, that whole sequence, you know,
00:54:55
it led to the pretty cool action sequence on the airplane.
00:54:58
But I don't know, the, the first failed attempt at the, you know,
00:55:03
Abbottabad complex, you know, because I, I guess that kind of
00:55:06
pissed me off because that's, I think that's actually how they
00:55:08
ended up getting him. Like the there is a retcon in a
00:55:12
in a sense in this way because you know, the the doctor does
00:55:15
end up getting DNA that way, right, Mike?
00:55:18
So. Yeah, I looked it up.
00:55:19
I don't know if he was successful, but there was an
00:55:21
attempt. Doctor Afridi was his name, and
00:55:23
apparently the CIA then abandoned him and like, we
00:55:25
didn't even help get him out or something.
00:55:27
But he did make the first attempt and they didn't open the
00:55:30
door because he was a male. OK.
00:55:34
But yeah, so that was still decent score, 7 1/2.
00:55:39
Yeah, yeah, I think the plot, Listen, I think the plot was
00:55:41
good. I think the action, I think the
00:55:44
premise was really good. So that's why I said, but I
00:55:46
think the action was carries it. I think 5 books down the line,
00:55:53
you'll remember some of these action, which is fine.
00:55:55
I mean, there's so many of these books, right?
00:55:57
Like if you can latch on to memorable things, he he
00:56:00
developed a a lot of these times, like the plots, I have to
00:56:02
go back and think like what it wait, what was exactly the plot
00:56:05
in this one? But I'll remember an action
00:56:08
sequence or I'll remember a character or an invent in it.
00:56:11
And he, he does it on all that stuff, yeah.
00:56:16
Well, all this really ties into buy in, which is only five
00:56:19
points here. And Brian, we tend to think of
00:56:21
buy in as as a reader, I'm bought into the story and just
00:56:24
along for the ride, but also that sense of realism.
00:56:27
So your five points can be a total of how realistic did the
00:56:31
book feel to you, but also were you along for the ride start to
00:56:35
finish? 3 1/2.
00:56:40
Yeah. Three 3 1/2 probably some parts
00:56:45
of it 5 some parts of it 5 some of it 3 some of it 4 So I I did
00:56:54
bounce. I think it did bounce around a
00:56:57
little bit, which can happen sometimes with these books.
00:57:00
So I think 3 1/2 it for me, though it the IT it did pick up
00:57:06
some steam really towards the end.
00:57:08
Like I I really like that last push through.
00:57:12
I was able to get through very, very quickly.
00:57:16
And but again, I think sometimes that's reading new author,
00:57:19
right? Like, I knew the cadence of a
00:57:22
Vince novel when I was reading them.
00:57:25
And then when Kyle took over, you, you, you know, you, you
00:57:28
have that vibe with somebody you've read before.
00:57:32
So part of that buying could just be needing to be exposed to
00:57:36
Don's writing more. And I'll be able to like,
00:57:38
understand, like the way he structures things with like the
00:57:42
big long passages of, you know, in between the dialogue where
00:57:47
Mitch kind of like boom, boom, boom, boom, you know, it's
00:57:49
usually rattling off. And again, I felt that was a
00:57:52
little bit more Clancy like to some degree, and it's just kind
00:57:56
of getting used to that vibe. But I, you know, by the end I
00:57:59
was definitely like bought into it.
00:58:04
Yeah, You know, you're right in saying that one of the biggest
00:58:08
things that took me out of this book was from the writing style
00:58:11
of I wanted a dialogue. I remember some scenes Vince
00:58:14
wrote. We're so crispy and clear and
00:58:16
the dialogue is back and forth and witty and sharp.
00:58:20
We got that here. But it had paragraphs of
00:58:22
exposition between those lines. So I just kind of wanted to see
00:58:25
characters talk a little bit more.
00:58:29
So that's a small buy. In Ding, you mentioned at the
00:58:32
mountainside meet with Marati. I don't know exactly if Damien
00:58:35
Marati's role was clear. I think it could have been
00:58:38
clarified. And then connecting the earlier
00:58:40
parts of the book to the later parts of the book.
00:58:42
Just a little more of that through line that that string
00:58:45
connecting and running through them all.
00:58:48
So the couple of those things, but at the same time you give me
00:58:51
that ending of the book, I can't put it down.
00:58:53
I'm not going to stop. That was just a straight run
00:58:57
through very Vince Flynn style race to the finish line.
00:59:01
And then the epilogue, you, you had me hook, line and sinker
00:59:04
with Tommy's lacrosse game rap showing up.
00:59:07
I Irene caught off guard. She's off kilter.
00:59:10
They kind of were cementing their relationship.
00:59:13
That brought me right back. So I'm going to settle on a 4A
00:59:16
little higher, although there's there certainly are some Dings,
00:59:19
but I'm going to be generous on this one because there was a lot
00:59:22
to like in this book. So for.
00:59:25
Yeah, I I grew, yeah, pretty much both of you.
00:59:28
It's the buy in definitely ebbed and flowed, but I I think
00:59:33
ultimately at the end I was, I was more bought in than not.
00:59:37
So I think I would learn more towards a four.
00:59:41
So yeah. Bad guys, we said it on our Part
00:59:46
2, maybe one of the weakest parts of the book.
00:59:49
But Brian, your take on the villains here, Ruinton and
00:59:53
Marathi, there's, there's not much else.
00:59:56
Who? Yeah, yeah, I think it was the.
01:00:02
I don't know that that's that's also the thing though, where you
01:00:07
have established a novel. We are the the true bad.
01:00:13
That you are rooting to be killed is happening off screen.
01:00:20
Right. Right, So, so the the true bad
01:00:24
in this is bin Laden, Bin Laden, right.
01:00:28
And you know, I I should have said this in the plot part.
01:00:32
I was really worried about the Mitch goes, the Bin Laden thing
01:00:36
just because how you plug that in and that's never really
01:00:40
referenced and it's never dealt with, You know, you're going to
01:00:43
have all these books, right, where like Mitch was heavily
01:00:46
involved with bin Laden and there's never a reference to
01:00:48
that again because we're going back and putting this in.
01:00:51
I think he did a great job with that, which you know of.
01:00:55
Yeah. You wouldn't really have to talk
01:00:56
about what he did because he stopped the missiles.
01:00:58
He wasn't part of the rating team or anything like that.
01:01:01
But yeah, I, I, I thought the villains were plot devices in
01:01:10
this one. Yeah.
01:01:11
They, you know, and and which by the I should add, sometimes it's
01:01:16
fine, you know, I I think he makes up for it in other areas
01:01:21
that are really interesting. But the this is not near the top
01:01:25
of like what I would deem to be, you know, the most memorable
01:01:31
Mitch Matt rap adversaries of all time, you know, whether it
01:01:35
be a political or a militaristic or a terrorist.
01:01:39
I think we've had some really juicy villain characters and
01:01:43
some of Kyle stuff in different ways.
01:01:48
So yeah, but I but to be fair to Don, I'm not sure the villain
01:01:55
was necessarily focal to drive it in this way.
01:02:01
It, you know, it, it wasn't so. But yeah, I, I, these aren't,
01:02:06
these aren't bad guys. Like by and large, like
01:02:09
sometimes I'm like, Oh my God. That was they're just, they're
01:02:12
there. They moved the story along.
01:02:14
Yeah, and I think that's another like problem with doing a a
01:02:19
prequel in a sense, or the slot in is that if you have too
01:02:23
memorable of a of a villain, you you either, you know, you
01:02:27
immediately had to kill him because, you know, he can't
01:02:31
stick around. But if you don't want to kill
01:02:33
him because he's like, you know, a really good villain or
01:02:35
whatever, then how do you how do you explain his absence?
01:02:40
You know, I mean, I guess you can because then you could bring
01:02:42
you could ultimately bring him back if you were to decide.
01:02:45
But you know, it's I feel like it's almost better to do it the
01:02:48
way that he did because to just use him as, like you said, plot
01:02:52
devices, Brian. So yeah, I'm jumped ahead of
01:02:56
you, Mike, but I'm I'm also a too.
01:02:58
Yeah. You're too?
01:02:58
Yeah, twos across the board, good guys though we we're going
01:03:02
to change our tunes here a little.
01:03:03
So Brian, five points for the good guys.
01:03:06
What do you think, 05? Yeah, yeah, there's a 5.
01:03:10
So that's what I mean. I think like ultimately, do you
01:03:13
read this book for the villain? Did you read the book from a
01:03:15
trap? He, he had a good MIT trap.
01:03:19
I enjoy his MIT trap to some degree.
01:03:21
That's all that really matters. Ultimately, I feel like in these
01:03:25
stories, like I thought the plot, the action was good.
01:03:28
Mitch was good. I liked his Irene.
01:03:30
I thought he brought elements to those characters that were new,
01:03:34
different. Loved how he used Mike Nash.
01:03:37
Got us some Scott in there. Marcus should have just called
01:03:41
him Marcus. Yeah, should have just called
01:03:43
him Marcus. I'm not taking off a point I'm
01:03:46
I'm getting. The that was there.
01:03:47
No, I, I really think I thought Marcus, but I thought his use of
01:03:51
good guys was top tier. Was, was really, really good and
01:03:56
really enjoyed it. Thought he wrote the character
01:03:59
well. Thought he wrote Stan.
01:04:01
You know what I mean? I thought all that stuff that
01:04:03
would be worrisome. I thought he did really nice job
01:04:06
with. I love, love, love that last
01:04:12
sequence with Mitch and Irene. Love it really, really, really
01:04:19
good for some reason. And I I for the life of me, I
01:04:23
can't remember if if this is in the book, it's not a rap book,
01:04:30
but for some reason, as I saw that sequence, I just like
01:04:33
bounced this idea of James Earl Jones in Harrison Ford in got
01:04:40
that second movie they did when he did Jack Jack Ryan, the one
01:04:44
set in Columbia. And there's like a sequence that
01:04:47
was a little bit similar. Patriot games, not Patriot games
01:04:50
to see why am I freaking blanking out?
01:04:52
It'll come to me later. But it was just like a vibe to
01:04:54
that that I really like. For whatever reason.
01:04:57
It worked for me. They were in a cemetery at one
01:04:59
point. There was like also how the had
01:05:02
a very like hunt for Red October as well, when it was James Earl
01:05:07
Jones and Alec Baldwin. Like this, this connection, this
01:05:10
like little thing that we don't necessarily see a lot between
01:05:15
Mitch and Irene. And I just I really liked that.
01:05:20
And I like if that's some of that you like Kyle brought
01:05:24
unique stuff to his side of the table that if Dom brings this
01:05:28
and how he's going to flesh these relationships out, it will
01:05:31
it will be really interesting as well.
01:05:34
You, you know what? The depth of that almost reminds
01:05:37
me of Kyle's scene where Mitch goes back to talk to Claudia for
01:05:44
the first time. And I called the you must be
01:05:47
Anna scene because I think he says you must be Anna when he
01:05:49
sees a little girl. And this is after the events of
01:05:52
Consent to Kill. And I just remember Kyle had to
01:05:55
write that scene with such depth of heart for Mitch to be able to
01:06:00
see this woman as a mother and know he spared the life of her
01:06:04
and her child and he needs to watch over them and take care of
01:06:08
them, even though they're responsible in the death of his
01:06:11
unborn child and and, and wife. And I feel like it had that
01:06:15
depth of emotion, that gravitas that that heart that that Don
01:06:19
was putting in here for Irene and Mitch.
01:06:21
So I think that's a hallmark of this series of these characters
01:06:24
are not one-dimensional. They're not just killers,
01:06:26
They're not just cold blooded and they I was so glad we got to
01:06:30
see a pure human moment between Mitch and Irene and and I'll
01:06:33
agree with you how. About the clear and present
01:06:37
danger, by the way, that's what I was trying to think, clear and
01:06:39
present, neutral. Setting, thoughts on setting?
01:06:42
Do we want to keep the order? Are we good with the order here,
01:06:44
Brian, or are you? Yeah, that's fine to kick it
01:06:46
off, OK. 4 You know I like, I like the setting it it does.
01:06:52
The only thing I will say is at times I was slightly confused of
01:06:59
where we because they're they're in one region really.
01:07:03
And like, how is he getting here?
01:07:04
How's he getting there? I was much better back in the
01:07:09
day on my geography of that region of the world, you know,
01:07:16
back during the War on Terror when we were that, you know,
01:07:18
when that stuff was going on. So I would say setting it all
01:07:24
there, you know, in in that region of the country, it
01:07:30
worked. I thought that I did.
01:07:32
I do. I really think I'll remember The
01:07:34
Cave sequence in the waterfall. I think a lot of this stuff
01:07:38
washes away. Like when you do like you guys
01:07:40
do deep analytical breakdowns of this and when we do movies, we
01:07:45
do it as well. You get into this minutiae of
01:07:48
like, wow, this trans like, and then you, you can go back in a
01:07:51
few years and you're just talking about like, Hey,
01:07:53
remember that cave sequence when he went into the waterfall or
01:07:57
remember that airplane sequence when that happened.
01:07:59
So I like the setting. I like where it was set, how it
01:08:02
was set. I, I was again, because I'm out
01:08:05
of the loop with my, that part of the world geography, since
01:08:09
we're so far removed from rap novels taking place there that I
01:08:15
was confused at times of like how close would they be?
01:08:18
Is this, can he really do this? Can he really get there?
01:08:21
But I did like where it was sat and I thought it worked.
01:08:24
So I'd I'd say A4. I'm with you.
01:08:28
I, I might just go a little lower.
01:08:31
I, I think I'm be at that three and a half, 3 1/2.
01:08:35
Well, the geography checked out for me.
01:08:38
It did take a lot of that legwork.
01:08:39
If you got to know it, you got to have prior knowledge.
01:08:41
I 100% agree. So it it checked, but was it
01:08:46
immersive? You know, and if in in Don's
01:08:49
first book, Matt Drake was on the ground in Syria and Oh my
01:08:53
goodness, the descriptions of him being in Syria, I remember
01:08:58
he goes into this little Hut he finds like this rundown
01:09:00
motorbike. He has to fix it up and then
01:09:02
he's escaping. The level of detail in that
01:09:05
scene was phenomenal. It was like lethal agent when
01:09:07
Kyle wrote that scene of Mitch on the chase through the jungle.
01:09:11
Or even when Mitch is in Yemen and he comes back from the
01:09:14
desert and he's out in the desert and, and the whole
01:09:16
village that was destroyed by the thing, it had this texture,
01:09:19
it had this immersiveness. Didn't fully feel that here.
01:09:23
Well, it didn't fully feel. So I am going to drop to a 3
01:09:26
1/2. I also have to sign off.
01:09:28
I'm sorry guys. I will come in and fill in cover
01:09:32
and you know what, the people are going to get a rant for me
01:09:34
on the cover and my free space. I'll give that a little post
01:09:37
credit scene, but if you guys don't mind wrapping up with that
01:09:41
and the ranking, I do have to go on daddy duty and I'm sorry
01:09:43
about this. My daddy did Postscript.
01:09:46
OK, go. Alright, thanks man.
01:09:50
This is the the first time this. Is the new.
01:09:54
The new norm, the. New norm you got to, you got to
01:09:57
adjust to this. What did you think of that?
01:09:59
Setting Mike has Mike has been there, you know, for for all of
01:10:03
my craziness with kids. But yeah, so, you know, I'm kind
01:10:07
of torn because I, I, I agree with you in the sense that I
01:10:11
felt immersed at points in terms of, you know, being in that
01:10:16
cave, being in like certain location, like being in, in like
01:10:22
certain physical locations, not like Geo Geo.
01:10:26
Geo Yeah, I know what you mean. I know what you're saying.
01:10:28
Yeah. Not like geographically, but you
01:10:30
know, description of the plane, description of, you know, the
01:10:35
safe house or you know, the obviously the description of the
01:10:38
helicopters. Like all of that was great.
01:10:41
You know, classical setting in terms of where we physically
01:10:44
are. He was kind of hamstring because
01:10:46
he he wanted to tell this story about being in Afghanistan.
01:10:50
Obviously that's something that's important to him.
01:10:52
Obviously that and we have to go into Pakistan Abbottabad because
01:10:55
that plays a role. Did I think he did a good job,
01:10:59
you know, outside of the Sphinghar Mountains, you know,
01:11:02
explaining to me, you know, like did I feel like I was there in
01:11:06
in J bad in, you know, Kabul in about a bad.
01:11:12
Yeah, I felt like it's like run-of-the-mill in terms.
01:11:14
I've seen way better. I guess my problem is I've seen
01:11:17
way better versions of each of those locations from Vince, from
01:11:21
Kyle, from other authors, Brad. So I'll probably just have to go
01:11:29
with Mike, you know, and do a 3 1/2.
01:11:32
So you have a four where I'm keeping track of this.
01:11:35
OK. All right.
01:11:39
Next we have cover. No, first we'll first we'll do
01:11:43
free space. What is what's your free space?
01:11:46
Five points you just want to give to anything.
01:11:49
Oh, that can add to anything. Yeah, you.
01:11:54
It's just a free five points. Then you it's essentially like
01:11:58
our winner of the book our what we like the most about it.
01:12:01
Oh. OK, you know, I, let's give that
01:12:04
a four or five maybe. I, I, I think that my biggest
01:12:09
take away from this in a positive light is the action was
01:12:17
very good and the writing of the core characters that we love is
01:12:24
very good. And that is giving me a real
01:12:29
sense of confidence. And I'm just the overall quality
01:12:34
writing of the book I felt is wildly strong.
01:12:36
He's a very gifted writer, but I was very pleased with that.
01:12:40
They're set, set pieces that I'll remember 5 years from now
01:12:43
from it. And I liked his interpretation
01:12:46
of the characters we love. So for me, somebody who's been
01:12:51
25 years in this, that that's a big win.
01:12:55
Like those two, yeah. Everything else is, yeah, we can
01:12:58
analyze it where we put it in the top list and everything.
01:13:00
But those two, I'm willing to give four or five points there
01:13:03
'cause I'm happy with the characters I love and I got some
01:13:07
pretty cool action sequences that I'll remember.
01:13:09
And that's a big take away from a Mitch rap novel, if you can
01:13:12
get that. Yeah, I mean, that's probably
01:13:15
like the, you know, the one thing that I, I would, I would
01:13:18
say if I had, you know, obviously I want to do something
01:13:20
different. I I think I really, and it's
01:13:24
kind of like adjacent to what you had.
01:13:28
I like the little nuances that he put specifically with Irene
01:13:32
and something that I feel like, you know, Vince himself didn't
01:13:37
do or, you know, and I don't know why or or why Kyle didn't
01:13:41
build upon this, but just the idea of all right, it makes
01:13:45
sense that she would have been traumatized so much by this
01:13:48
event that it would, you know, cause her to be fidgety.
01:13:52
You know, like when that creepy joint Chief puts puts his hand
01:13:56
on her back, she like flitches and stuff like that, you know,
01:13:58
just those little tiny things. And then also building upon the
01:14:02
Mitch Irene relationship. And then you know, kind of what
01:14:07
like you and Mike were saying earlier, how the Mike Nash
01:14:10
stuff, and I like how Mike put it like how this book makes
01:14:17
enemy of the gates better and enemy at the gates makes this
01:14:19
book better. You know, they kind of they they
01:14:21
perfectly. Interplay.
01:14:22
With each other yeah super cool and I I liked I liked how Don
01:14:27
did that you know it's it's a nice way to bring in obviously
01:14:32
heavily focused on Vince and and how I'm going to take up from
01:14:35
Vince, but at the same time I have to acknowledge that another
01:14:38
author came both in between and and how do I pay tribute to both
01:14:43
authors at the same time so. Agreed.
01:14:47
All right, the last thing and obviously guys, I don't know how
01:14:50
Mike's going to edit this, but if he's if he leaves this in he
01:14:54
he had to step away for a child emergency, but.
01:14:58
Well, not a bad emergency. No, not a bad emergency.
01:15:00
Well, it was funny. Like when I was interviewing TJ
01:15:05
Newman, I had to do that one solo because Mike had to leave
01:15:08
to go birth to like to the. The.
01:15:11
Labor. The birth of the baby.
01:15:12
So, yeah, all right, so our favorite topic, Judge a cover,
01:15:20
judge a book by the cover. And so you've seen the three.
01:15:23
You have it up. Pull it up on Instagram or
01:15:26
social media. Yeah, I've seen the three.
01:15:29
OK, So what what is your favorite?
01:15:31
And then next, what do you think?
01:15:36
What would you score the composite of the three?
01:15:40
So I got to be honest with you, I and you guys might just, I
01:15:48
really didn't like the cover. Really.
01:15:50
Oh wow, hot take coming in. I I didn't like it, I get it,
01:15:54
the symbolism of it and everything, but it is one of my
01:16:01
of of the hardcover versions covers original covers.
01:16:07
It's one of my least favorite mid trap covers.
01:16:10
OK, I tell me why. I I get what they're trying to
01:16:16
do there, but let me ask you something.
01:16:21
Is the Bin Laden thing the biggest part of this book to
01:16:27
you? I mean I he wants it to be but
01:16:32
is. It though, it's not, is it?
01:16:34
Is it central to Mitch's story? Like Mitch is trying to get
01:16:40
those missiles and at the same time is involved and he
01:16:43
definitely obviously wants to get it.
01:16:45
But is the is that really? And, and I understand like the
01:16:48
symbolism, I think it's beautiful.
01:16:50
Like the concept of, hey, let's do this, 'cause we're we're
01:16:52
going to kill bin Laden in this. We never see bin Laden in this
01:16:56
book. No, we don't.
01:16:59
So I mean, I probably prefer B. Yeah, you're right.
01:17:07
Because that has more to do. It has.
01:17:08
More to do with what's what's going on now.
01:17:11
The symbolism of it I love. I think it's a beautiful concept
01:17:15
and an idea in that C is well, whenever they do like the fake
01:17:21
people like I hate. I it's that's the British
01:17:24
version. Yeah, not my that with it kind
01:17:27
of looks like a Jack Reacher cover C.
01:17:30
Yeah, that's the the The Walking man, we call it.
01:17:33
You know, normally they're walking away or walking towards
01:17:36
something, so. I do love the placement of the
01:17:42
Vince Flynn in a above but I have like a huge, huge issue
01:17:52
actually with the cover. Huge issue and it's where it
01:17:56
says number one New York Times bestselling author of total
01:18:00
power. I have the biggest issue in the
01:18:07
world with this. God bless Vince, love him know
01:18:11
it was his character all that Iowa Mills wrote total power.
01:18:16
Don Bentley didn't write total power.
01:18:19
Vince Flynn didn't write total power.
01:18:21
Why are you putting #1 bestselling author of Total
01:18:24
Power on a cover of this book? So it's funny, we, we have like
01:18:32
a Patreon group chat and, and someone brought that up because
01:18:35
it was on the arc and we were all thinking like it.
01:18:39
We actually went back and looked the past three novels have all
01:18:43
said that. And we asked David about it and
01:18:47
he was like, oh, that, that was supposed to say code red like,
01:18:51
but they didn't catch it, I guess because I, I assuming that
01:18:55
they were, they should have been changing that, you know?
01:18:58
But even if it says code code red.
01:19:02
It's, it's not, I guess it would be better to put, you know, I
01:19:07
don't know, I, I know why they're putting it on there
01:19:08
because they, they, they, they have the ability to say, you
01:19:11
know. I, I know they do.
01:19:12
I just, I don't know, I, I that that is a super nip.
01:19:16
And that, by the way, has nothing to do with Don Nothing
01:19:19
at all. I'm sure the cover probably
01:19:21
doesn't even have anything to do with Don I I I like the the
01:19:26
symbol. I don't.
01:19:27
The colour scheme is nice and everything.
01:19:29
It just, I don't know, didn't do it for me.
01:19:32
People will probably go after me now, but.
01:19:35
Aggregate aggregators. Are going to go 3, maybe a 2.
01:19:43
Oh, OK. I don't really love any of these
01:19:46
covers to be honest with you all.
01:19:50
Right. You know, I I like the first
01:19:54
cover, but you kind of that's a good point in terms of is, is
01:20:02
Bin Laden really the main point of this?
01:20:04
You know, obviously having the symbolism of the the twin towers
01:20:07
be there. And in a sense, we were, we were
01:20:11
a little rope a doped in terms of like when they put out the
01:20:15
plot details. You know, only one man has the
01:20:20
ability to like confirm like Mitch didn't actually.
01:20:24
I mean, I guess he does in a very circuitous route, like
01:20:30
confirm that he's there because he's the one, you know, I guess
01:20:35
he gets the knowledge from Ashanti to confirm that that bin
01:20:38
Laden is the one there. But I purely see a as a a ploy
01:20:44
to pull at the heartstrings to to pull that, you know, to have
01:20:49
that symbolism to, you know, drive sales.
01:20:52
If we had to purely judge a cover, a a book by the cover in
01:20:56
terms of like what is more important to the plot, I think B
01:21:00
for sure is is is there. I like the the the color scheme
01:21:05
on B as well. And then C is just a throw away.
01:21:07
It's it's a typical cover C. It's AC, It's a prime.
01:21:11
It's a prime cover C If he was, if he was just we needed him
01:21:15
running. He's he's The fact he's standing
01:21:17
is a little upsetting. If am I going to come back for
01:21:19
Cover C, is that what's going to happen?
01:21:21
I heard Cover C had to had to jump in.
01:21:24
It's like a bat signal. We we need a cover C signal.
01:21:28
I'm sorry guys, can you give me the quick rundown because I
01:21:30
might have stolen a few minutes here to wrap up with you.
01:21:34
That's OK. We we are on cover, Mike.
01:21:37
So Brian had a hot take, does not like the cover.
01:21:42
He he gave the covers as a two. I'm going to give it I'm going
01:21:47
to give it a three. What?
01:21:50
What are you giving it, Mike? Wow, I actually.
01:21:55
Went as I went as far as I'm was saying, it's one of my least
01:21:58
favorite. Yeah, he said.
01:22:00
It was his. One of my least favorite hard
01:22:02
covers of Flynn novel. Wow.
01:22:06
And I can't stand that they have power.
01:22:10
Total. Power is the thing, considering
01:22:12
that is a Kyle written novel. That's a huge issue.
01:22:16
A few of our patrons were livid about that and, and reached out
01:22:19
to David and Simon and Schuster and, and we're really upset.
01:22:22
And, and I I agree that should never have gone to print.
01:22:26
It kind of goes back to my Marcus rant of it was less about
01:22:29
the mistake that was made. It was more about being sloppy
01:22:32
and showing disregard for a series that deserves our utmost
01:22:36
attention. So the total power Kyle Mills
01:22:39
snub there, I agree, is part of that.
01:22:41
The I'm going to, I'm going to change the tune here.
01:22:44
I love these. Wow.
01:22:47
Particularly cover B and I know it's not the main hardcover
01:22:51
print. Hover B with the mountains must
01:22:53
be the spin. Bar I said I would have gone
01:22:56
with B if any of them. Damn, if you made B the main
01:23:00
hardcover print, I'm flirting with A5 if you may be the main
01:23:05
hardcover print. Yeah, I'm going to actually say
01:23:09
I I do like it. I think having the Freedom Tower
01:23:12
lights in the memorial is fitting because it's about Bin
01:23:16
Laden, but there is this anachronism of that had nothing
01:23:21
to do at the time. I just it like the book, the
01:23:25
story didn't bring it up. It didn't it wasn't in New York.
01:23:27
It didn't it didn't take place in the time period of the towers
01:23:30
being lit. There was no like memorial
01:23:32
discussion about 911. It is so it was kind of removed
01:23:38
from the events of the domestic home front and and the
01:23:41
reflection and and and memorializing the people who
01:23:45
lost their lives. It really didn't have anything
01:23:47
to do with that had to do with the raid which was years later.
01:23:50
So yeah, I agree a could irk me for that, but I'm OK with the
01:23:55
design of it all. But there is a miss of no
01:23:59
helicopters. This is Don Bentley that I.
01:24:02
Know we not have a helicopter. Yeah, I could see them.
01:24:05
See, the whole thing should be. Helicopters should be.
01:24:07
Helicopter if B had a helicopter.
01:24:10
Yeah, everything BB just evokes helicopters kind of going
01:24:13
through those mountains skirting low.
01:24:15
Under the Can't believe there's not a helicopter on this cover.
01:24:18
Now that you mention it. Shocking.
01:24:20
Yeah, yeah. And cover see, pissed me off at
01:24:24
first. It it, it really pissed me off.
01:24:26
It's a typical cover see. I would have preferred it have
01:24:29
power lines or a random street sign, like, you know,
01:24:32
something's totally stupid. I think it would have actually
01:24:35
made it better. But it reminds me a little bit.
01:24:40
And I think instead of a desert, you should have had this at an
01:24:43
airport at night time with the runway lights maybe, yeah, you
01:24:47
could do something like that, 'cause Mitch was holding his gun
01:24:51
and he's like, do I put the gun on the car?
01:24:53
And Mitch was like, I'm about to fire on this bitch if he don't
01:24:56
slow down. Cover C we cover C we could do
01:25:00
on ChatGPT in like. 5 minutes. That's all cover.
01:25:04
C The other ones are artistic. C is like literally I could say
01:25:08
chat. Give me a random dude holding a
01:25:10
gun in the desert and let's slap it on the cover of our book.
01:25:14
It at least. Where was that that the British
01:25:16
one? Usually, yeah, that actually,
01:25:19
yes, I saw one of our one of our international readers had a copy
01:25:22
of it. I think Australia too, because I
01:25:24
think. It looks like a Jack Reacher
01:25:26
cover. Down under with it, it does.
01:25:29
It. If and I like the colours of it,
01:25:32
that's the only problem. So I'm I'm half partial because
01:25:34
of the colours and I like it a little bit because it reminds me
01:25:36
of the airport scene, even though that's not at all what
01:25:38
they were going for. There's no airport, there's no
01:25:42
plane but. No, Mark is pissing me off
01:25:45
enough. I I don't have the energy to get
01:25:47
pissed off about these as much. And because I like Cover B, I'm
01:25:50
going to settle. I'm going to settle on a 3 1/2.
01:25:54
I like them enough. I like them enough.
01:25:58
Did y'all do free space? We did free space already.
01:26:01
So you want to give us your free space real quick?
01:26:04
I, I could go in a lot of direction, a lot of places to
01:26:15
go. Man, we said so much.
01:26:16
I I think I'm going to go with the decision to bring back so
01:26:23
many characters. Like most of them landed.
01:26:27
That was it. Yeah, Yeah, it's OK.
01:26:32
You can have that. I think that's the biggest take
01:26:33
away, no? No, you, you, you know what?
01:26:35
Besides the characters, the other biggest win was connecting
01:26:38
the plot, The missile plot and Ashanti and the Iranians wanting
01:26:42
to get revenge by taking down our guys in Afghanistan, get
01:26:46
revenge for the hit on the nuclear facility, which they
01:26:48
think was us, where they have to pretend to the world they think
01:26:51
it's us. So they look strong and then
01:26:53
selling the missiles and then connecting that to Mitch having
01:26:55
to be the shadow force to save the day instead of putting him
01:26:58
on the OP. So I'm going to go with the big
01:27:00
winner is the plot connection between the missiles and the Bin
01:27:04
Laden raid. And you don't have to put Mitch
01:27:08
on the Bin Laden raid or in the Abatabad complex because you've
01:27:11
got around that and you did it brilliantly.
01:27:13
So that's that's my winner. That's a good one.
01:27:16
Yeah. Was I highest?
01:27:18
Was I the highest on this book of all?
01:27:19
Three. Yeah, you were.
01:27:21
Geez. So we came in, we came in a
01:27:25
little lower than I thought we were going to be, but I still
01:27:28
think it's a good score. It's I, I had a 38, Mike, you
01:27:31
had a 39 and and Brian, you had a 36.5.
01:27:35
Still OK, solid scores. Solid.
01:27:38
Yeah, yeah, fracking into the 40s, I would have thought My
01:27:42
first reaction in the book was like, this is going to be low
01:27:44
40s. So I'm a little surprised.
01:27:48
But we we did Ding it a few times.
01:27:49
Scorecard doesn't lie man. Scorecard doesn't lie, that's
01:27:52
right. So we have to, we have to slot
01:27:59
this somewhere. Where does it?
01:28:01
Does it crack your guys's top five?
01:28:03
Crack your top 10. For me, no, it doesn't close,
01:28:09
but I got to be honest with you, 8 of my top 10s are Vince's
01:28:14
books. So, you know, and it's, I think
01:28:20
it's an impossible, I mean, unless you, I mean, I thought
01:28:23
it's really good book. I, I said when I tweeted out
01:28:26
like the day it came out, I said tremendous addition to the and I
01:28:30
stand by that. I, I don't think it's fair to
01:28:33
judge this, you know, I mean, if you looked at my top five, it's
01:28:38
consent to kill, transfer the power, Memorial Day, executive
01:28:41
power, separation of power. You know what I mean?
01:28:43
That those original Vince novels, that the classics and
01:28:49
then I have two Kyle ones that jump in there in that top ten as
01:28:53
well, so. What is your highest Kyle book?
01:28:56
Is it the? Survivor Highest No Enemy of the
01:28:59
state. Enemy of the state, OK.
01:29:02
I have it seven, OK. And then I have and I'm, as you
01:29:06
guys know, my huge total power. Yeah, you are too huge to love
01:29:10
our total. Power and I know a lot of people
01:29:12
don't. That's my 10.
01:29:13
That's number nine for me and then the survivors there.
01:29:16
So but this does jump there. There's books that this is over.
01:29:23
You know there there's ones that it's over.
01:29:26
I just it's not top 10, but I also don't think that's fair off
01:29:30
of one book because especially when eight of the 10 are Vince
01:29:35
books. It's really, really hard to, to
01:29:38
crack it. I, it's really hard to crack
01:29:40
into that top five. I mean, we're 20.
01:29:42
Three books but it. Doesn't.
01:29:44
Oh yeah, a whole lot of Vince books.
01:29:47
No, but a lot of Kyle's books don't.
01:29:49
Vin beat Vince's book. Is it better than kill shot?
01:29:55
I think so, yes. Yeah, I think so.
01:29:58
Is it better than protect and defend?
01:30:04
I don't. Think so.
01:30:06
I rated protect and defend lower when we covered it back in the
01:30:09
day, but then we did a revisited and we didn't really liked it
01:30:13
and I really liked it. So on my first reread, first
01:30:17
read of Protect and Defend I probably would have said this
01:30:19
one is better. But having revisited Protect and
01:30:22
Defend, no, that's a great book. Is it better than term limits?
01:30:30
I don't think so. No.
01:30:37
Order to kill there's going Is it better than an order to kill
01:30:41
like a mid tier tile book like an.
01:30:43
I think it's I, I think it's right there.
01:30:45
I think it's right there. I would put it over those ones.
01:30:48
I would. I would put it over that one.
01:30:51
Enemy of the Gates. No, Enemy of the Gates is a top
01:30:54
ten one for me. I I just think that what he did
01:30:58
there was so original yeah and the IT mean talk about bad guys
01:31:03
and that and what he does the cooks there I.
01:31:07
Think it's better than Code Red for sure.
01:31:09
Definitely better than Code Red. Yeah, I, I listen, I think it's
01:31:12
really again, it's like then you start getting into like, what's
01:31:16
your favorite season of Yeah, exactly 2424, which I mean, if
01:31:21
you, if you remember, we did the Kyle retrospective.
01:31:23
Our mind was why? Like what I look for sometimes
01:31:27
in a Mitch book is different than what a lot of people would
01:31:29
look for. I think if you're a Mitch rap
01:31:31
fan, you have to by and large be very happy, very happy with with
01:31:36
this book and feel very excited to see where Don goes with it.
01:31:45
Because the core of what you want is there.
01:31:48
Everything else is you can we could get into arguments over I
01:31:51
don't like this plot piece and separation of power and then
01:31:54
then third option he did they all that, but we go back to why
01:31:58
we wanted and why we're 25 years into this.
01:32:01
We love Mitch and the action is always bad ass and he delivered
01:32:07
on both of those things. Let let's say it like it is.
01:32:11
The number one thing Don had to do was write a Mitch rap book.
01:32:15
And this is a Mitch rap book that period.
01:32:18
That's all you needed to do. And he absolutely did it.
01:32:21
You could have easily written one of these books and borrowed
01:32:23
on so many other genres and so many other stories and show so
01:32:26
many other tropes and characters and made it something that it's
01:32:29
not and that it's not supposed to be.
01:32:31
And Don didn't do that. He he he made it a Don Bentley
01:32:35
Mitch rap book. And that's all you could say.
01:32:37
Well, and if he starts writing enough of them, then you can
01:32:40
have a real like apples to apples comparison of like
01:32:43
ranking Don Bentley, Mitch rap books.
01:32:45
Because I think it's very difficult to crack that.
01:32:49
Again, like Kyle wrote so many that if you get into that top
01:32:53
ten, but there's a real discussion you should almost
01:32:55
have like here, where's my Vince books rank?
01:32:58
Where do my Kyle books rank? And there is some crossover
01:33:03
there, but it's kind of like arguing Bond films, you know, Is
01:33:08
it Connery? Do you know what I mean?
01:33:11
It's like, well, we've had Connery.
01:33:14
Then we we have our, you know, are you a Daniel Craig person?
01:33:19
Totally. You can only rank those within
01:33:21
their subcategories. There.
01:33:23
But that's what I mean, we're getting different iterations of
01:33:25
it and we need a few Dom books to be able to, I think, see what
01:33:34
he does. Because I think even with Kyle,
01:33:37
I loved Survivor, but it took me a few books to get immersed in
01:33:43
that world and now really be able to have an understanding of
01:33:47
why those future books meant so much to me and why I, I, I
01:33:52
really, I will say this, I missed Kyle's Mitch.
01:33:55
Yeah. I missed.
01:33:57
I missed his world. I missed those characters.
01:34:00
I I I missed it? Not you mean not getting it this
01:34:05
summer? Yeah, more than I thought I was
01:34:07
going to more than I like some of those things that I was like,
01:34:12
oh man, I kind of miss this piece or, and I, and I loved his
01:34:16
books, but I was like, OK, we're going to old school Mitch.
01:34:19
Let's let's, let's do it. And I love that.
01:34:21
But I, I also missed that trip He took us on, you know, into
01:34:27
that world. I'd you know, we came immersed
01:34:29
in that world for over a decade. Yeah.
01:34:34
Well said, well said. So middle of the pack had a
01:34:36
chance at top ten, definitely not bottom 5 or anything solidly
01:34:40
in that middle, really solid solidly in that middle and and I
01:34:44
would even argue could have made that top ten.
01:34:47
It was, it was like so close to possibly being a top ten book in
01:34:50
my opinion, but just. Maybe it is, maybe it is when
01:34:54
you revisit it again. That's right.
01:34:56
Because that first, first interpretation of something, go
01:35:00
back to it. Now you know where it is and
01:35:02
you're not. Worried about stuff?
01:35:04
Let's see how it ages. I would really love to see how
01:35:07
it ages, yeah. All right, well, we thank you
01:35:13
Brian for spending this evening with us.
01:35:17
Let us know you know what you haven't had a pod in a little
01:35:19
bit, but can you tell our listeners you know in in the
01:35:22
future we're going to have some more com majors coming down the.
01:35:24
Line com majors is there. We have over 200 episodes, so
01:35:29
feel free to go in and it's it's never time sensitive because we
01:35:33
just do a movie every week. So perfect.
01:35:35
You can just if you've watched a movie, but go on there, see see
01:35:39
what's there and you can watch. And we should have a couple of
01:35:41
new ones coming up. We're on where we we scaled
01:35:45
back. We're semi retired.
01:35:47
We're semi retired podcasters. Our guest this week is Stephen
01:35:51
Weber. So it's going to be real.
01:35:53
We're really excited that very excited.
01:35:59
That's like our guest is going to be Don Bentley.
01:36:01
Not going to not going to not going to bring up I was on this
01:36:04
show with with Steven, but. Well, you're not.
01:36:07
Kidding. I did.
01:36:08
No, I'm very much kidding. I'm always coming home.
01:36:11
Wait a minute, now he's an audio book guy.
01:36:15
Can you imagine that would go to Steven Weber this week.
01:36:19
I want to hear Don Bentley on another podcast and somebody ask
01:36:22
him, hey, you know, why aren't you on the Mitch Rap podcast?
01:36:29
See. You're skirting those boys.
01:36:32
Maybe because they burned you over Marcus Drummond.
01:36:38
Anyways, always a pleasure to talk to you, Brian.
01:36:41
Definitely going to have to have you back on, you know, hopefully
01:36:45
not a year from now. But if not, it definitely will
01:36:48
when we get Don Bentley book #2 maybe when we get the the plot
01:36:52
reveal. Yes, maybe I could.
01:36:55
Maybe I can I can make an appearance on a one of the other
01:36:58
myriad of 15 programs that you have sometime.
01:37:02
Yep. Hey, pick a book anytime you
01:37:04
want to. You want to pick a book?
01:37:06
Let us know. Yeah, hey, can I close this out
01:37:09
with a Limerick? I realized I never gave Don a
01:37:11
Limerick for capture kill. Oh yes, do it.
01:37:13
No limits, do it. There once was a Marcus
01:37:17
Drummond. I think you should start having
01:37:23
Stephen Weber read the limericks.
01:37:29
That would be amazing. You just could like write 10 of
01:37:32
them and just you could have him do it as a cameo.
01:37:34
He wouldn't even know. Like, yes, like have him read.
01:37:37
He's like, all right, here's my cameo.
01:37:39
This somebody sent this to me. I'm reading.
01:37:41
We're going to use hard earned Patreon dollars for that.
01:37:44
They would love that. Steven Weber reading cameos.
01:37:47
I bet there's an AI way to do it.
01:37:49
There's so much Steven Weber audio recording I'm.
01:37:51
Sure, they're knock that out. I will send you guys the
01:37:54
complete collection of what was that Wings Sandpiper Airlines.
01:38:00
You, you guys, you have everything you need from that.
01:38:03
Marcus Drummond will get on to cutting it together for you
01:38:06
guys. I'm doing like a YouTube dub
01:38:08
video, you know, music video of the Stephen Webber just wrapping
01:38:13
Marcus Dumondo Drummond over and over.
01:38:15
But now, here we go. Oh my God.
01:38:21
A target to capture or kill undercover.
01:38:24
Fear he'll and still following a lead as Farid Saeed, Don Shirley
01:38:29
gives us a thrill. Boom, Boo Boo.
01:38:32
There we go, There we go. Again, we do thank our patrons,
01:38:35
including our deputy director Sherry F, our special operator
01:38:38
Jason C, our special agents, Ben, Daryl, Kevin, George, Matt,
01:38:42
Dawn, Peggy, Mark, Mike and Chris.
01:38:45
Please subscribe, rate and review to all three versions of
01:38:49
this podcast. You can find
01:38:50
us.online@thrillerpod.com or on Twitter and Instagram at
01:38:54
thrillerpod. And just as always, just let
01:38:57
Mitch leave Mitch.