Tom Reece is here! Chris and Mike discuss 'Cry Havoc', the latest book in Jack Carr’s Terminal List universe, alongside the host of the Terminal Vengeance YouTube channel. They delve into their first impressions, the action-packed scenes, and the intricate espionage elements that define the narrative. The conversation highlights the character development of Tom Reece, the historical context of the Vietnam War, and the pacing of the plot.
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CHAPTERS
02:55 First Impressions of 'Cry Havoc'
05:45 Exploring the Action and Pacing
08:53 Espionage Elements and Character Development
11:55 Fan Service and Payoffs
15:00 Ranking the Book in the Series
17:57 Historical Context and Critique of the Vietnam War
23:59 Weapons and Technical Details
27:08 The Dubois Storyline and Its Impact
44:40 Action and Suspense in the Narrative
01:01:02 Setting and Atmosphere
01:03:36 Cover Art and Presentation
01:07:43 Final Thoughts and Highlights
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KEYWORDS:
#JackCarr, #CryHavoc, #JamesReece, Jack Carr, Cry Havoc, Tom Reece, James Reece, espionage, Vietnam War, book review, thriller, action, character development, historical fiction
#NoLimitsPodcast #ThrillerPodcast #SpyThrillers
00:00:18
Hey, guys, I'm Chris. And I'm Mike.
00:00:22
And welcome back to this week's No Limits the Jack Car Podcast.
00:00:26
How you doing today, Mike? I'm good and we have a special
00:00:30
guest joining us, but right before I introduce him, I just
00:00:34
want to let you know this episode and all our episodes are
00:00:37
brought to you by the Thriller Pod Patron Book Club.
00:00:40
For less than the price of a novel a month, you can help
00:00:43
support the podcast be the reason that we can make more
00:00:45
podcasts. So head on over to
00:00:47
thrillerpod.com. Click the Patreon tab to learn
00:00:50
more and join the book club. But let me just introduce our
00:00:53
special guest because we are here to talk.
00:00:55
Spoilers for Cry Havoc, the latest book in the Jack Carr
00:01:00
universe featuring Tom Reece and no one better to talk to than
00:01:04
Terminal Vengeance, the creator behind the YouTube channel
00:01:07
Terminal Vengeance TV. Thanks for joining us tonight.
00:01:11
I'm glad to be here. Thank you for having me.
00:01:13
Yeah, welcome back. Yeah, I'm rolling in here.
00:01:16
Steam rolling coming in hot, messing mic up.
00:01:21
You know, I was supposed to be on T VS YouTube, family issues,
00:01:26
whatever. Mike, I'm sure you did a great
00:01:28
job. I highly recommend you guys go
00:01:30
check out Terminal of Vengeance. But more importantly, I'm
00:01:34
excited to have you here to talk to spoilers.
00:01:36
Let's like I want to dive into this book, see what, see what
00:01:38
you guys think. Yeah, TV.
00:01:40
What was your first reaction? Getting a Tom Reese book in your
00:01:43
hands. Super stoked to get it.
00:01:47
This was one of the most anticipated books for me ever,
00:01:51
and I got it. I got the file actually, and it
00:01:55
was in the middle of the day and I was thinking, man, I think I'm
00:01:57
just going to have to wait till it's night time.
00:02:00
And then I stayed up all night reading Cry Havoc until I
00:02:05
finished it. It was the only time I've ever
00:02:07
done that, actually. It's that good.
00:02:10
We on Thriller Pod know about those nights back in the day
00:02:12
with Mitch Rap. That was me once a year when the
00:02:15
new Mitch Rap books came out. So.
00:02:17
Takes me back to when I was waiting up for like, you know,
00:02:19
Harry Potter releases at staying up for the Barnes and Noble book
00:02:23
releases. Sure.
00:02:24
Having people drive by and say Snape killed Dumbledore, you
00:02:27
know, like. That's right.
00:02:28
That's right. She was a spy, you know, No,
00:02:33
like I, I fully get it. Like this book.
00:02:37
I I will say this book, like at times had its issues and then
00:02:41
we'll get to it. But as a whole, as a as a as a
00:02:44
piece of like wanting us to, you know, how many times do we beg
00:02:49
for fan fiction of getting, you know, more into the details of,
00:02:54
you know, a one off character, A1 paragraph, A1 liner, you
00:02:58
know, like, and we're intrigued by it and to the culmination of
00:03:02
everything that Jack Carr has put into Tom Reese.
00:03:07
Like in the books, he's been a character without actually being
00:03:10
a character there. And now they like see him on the
00:03:12
page and see how much of a mother fucking bad ass he is.
00:03:16
Like, you know, sorry, like it was great, like, you know, and
00:03:20
the, the way he decided to tell the story was, was super
00:03:23
interesting, man. Like I, I just action, intrigue,
00:03:28
suspense, like you had it all. Yeah, Now TV did all of this
00:03:34
with your reading happened after you heard the first excerpts
00:03:37
released on the Jack Car Channel and his podcast?
00:03:39
Cause for me, I heard those first few chapters and that was
00:03:43
my first foray into the book. And I was like, we're doing
00:03:46
this. We are on the ground in
00:03:48
Southeast Asia. We are getting a scene in the
00:03:50
jungle, we're getting a chopper, we're getting him dangling from
00:03:53
this rope. I was brought into that action
00:03:56
immediately, even before the book was released.
00:03:59
So did you get to listen to those audio excerpts before, or
00:04:02
did you just jump right into the text?
00:04:04
I think I actually got the audio, I mean the e-book first.
00:04:08
But right away I'm like what is going on?
00:04:13
How is somebody falling from the skies through the trees cutting
00:04:17
themselves off of a helicopter? What is going on?
00:04:20
And. I wanted to come back to that
00:04:22
because that scene, the opening, was so fantastic.
00:04:25
I want to be on the Ho Chi Minh trail, and I want to talk about
00:04:29
the smells. I remember very early in the
00:04:31
book, it stuck with me how much he was talking about if you ate
00:04:35
the wrong foods, you had to almost like, detox yourself to
00:04:38
only eat these Vietnamese foods for weeks.
00:04:41
And they couldn't have certain aromas because they'd come out
00:04:43
your pores and, you know, the VC could track that and they'd find
00:04:47
you in the jungle. I was like, yo, this is real.
00:04:50
It feels like, you know, Forrest Gump, we're sitting there in the
00:04:53
rain and the, it's raining up from the ground.
00:04:55
Just the feels, the moisture, the dampness, the everything.
00:04:59
Like I felt like I was hitting those branches as the helicopter
00:05:02
evac was going and I was getting twisted up in this cord.
00:05:06
I love the adventures of Quinn and Tom.
00:05:09
Very early on. I think that established it.
00:05:12
And the fact that we moved away from that through Part 1 for a
00:05:15
little bit was disappointing. And right as I wanted it, right
00:05:19
as it was like, can we kind of get back to that?
00:05:22
We just cut, I think it was we cut to Part 2 and then we're
00:05:25
back on the ground and he just, you know, released himself.
00:05:28
So I thought that pacing of how this was planned and written out
00:05:33
was awesome to start with that and make sure right at the
00:05:36
moment where you wanted it, you came back to it and it hit.
00:05:40
Yeah. No, like we haven't seen that
00:05:44
really is a tactic that I feel like Jack has used, you know,
00:05:49
this sort of like almost like a cold opening, but it's an
00:05:52
extended cold opening. Cause like that, that action
00:05:54
scene with, you know, the beginning of the helicopter is,
00:05:57
is pretty long, you know, and like we, we obviously have some
00:05:59
chapters like building up to that, but then like I, you know,
00:06:03
there, there's this something. Unfortunately, it's, you know,
00:06:06
problem with our, our way. We read books, Mike, we, we
00:06:08
share a podcast, we share the same audiobooks.
00:06:11
Sometimes like you're ahead. I jump back and it was a little
00:06:15
jarring to me because like I think you would, it had jumped
00:06:17
me ahead like a two chapters and I was like where the I was just
00:06:21
in the helicopter with them. Like where do I, I, I shouldn't
00:06:23
be here? And then I went back and I'm
00:06:25
like, oh, I, I actually didn't miss that much.
00:06:26
Like we're right there and then like slow have this, you know,
00:06:31
slow down the pace. Let's build up the story.
00:06:35
You know, let's tell, you know, a lot of different things.
00:06:38
I I do think you know, and he even mentioned it mentions it in
00:06:41
the, you know, authors are at the end.
00:06:43
Like this was his most extensively researched book.
00:06:47
You can definitely tell like that comes out and I feel like
00:06:50
at at times it, it's for me, it was like it was a lot.
00:06:53
But one of the things I love about, you know, Jack Carr, Brad
00:06:57
Thore, you know, any of these people in the village genre.
00:07:00
I I love it when they I don't know something and they
00:07:03
intrigued me enough to want to like Google it, you know, like I
00:07:06
want, I want to dig deeper in, you know, I want to read more
00:07:09
books about Vietnam. I've never actually like really
00:07:12
dived in into that besides seeing Apocalypse Now and like
00:07:14
now I'm like all into like this, you know, Vietnam War grace
00:07:18
because after reading this book. Yeah.
00:07:21
And to do that with the Pueblo as as well at the end, to read
00:07:25
the note of how that was a real mission and then actually ripped
00:07:28
from the headlines of, you know, the Pueblo crew coming home to
00:07:32
so seamlessly integrate that real historical event into a
00:07:36
plot and make it the motivating factor of this fantastic
00:07:40
espionage tale. Because that's another
00:07:42
transition that's made after the jungle cold open.
00:07:44
Like you said, you have Pueblo, you have the jungle.
00:07:48
Or like we're doing this. And then it transitions to a bit
00:07:51
of a slow burn, almost like this British style spy novel, but set
00:07:57
in Southeast Asia, but getting scenes at with the Gru back in
00:08:01
Russia. And I really thought we were, we
00:08:05
kind of were painting with very heavy strokes and we were
00:08:07
getting all the Russians and all their connections, all their
00:08:10
backstories. And and I think you have to
00:08:14
power through that. And the pay off came in the end
00:08:18
that all of that that was painted throughout that kind of
00:08:21
early middle section of the book that was, I will agree with you,
00:08:24
a little tough to get to. It lingered a little long.
00:08:26
It all paid off. And and this ended up being much
00:08:30
more of an espionage tale than I ever thought it would be.
00:08:33
I I was wondering if it was going to be like on the ground
00:08:35
in the jungle, non-stop action and almost like a movie that's a
00:08:39
one shot take like that. What was it 1917 that movie that
00:08:43
came out? I was wondering if it was just
00:08:44
going to be this one shot take of them in the jungle, you know,
00:08:47
doing these missions, Mac be SOG going off into Laos and it
00:08:52
wasn't. It was almost in the end.
00:08:54
I was glad we had a refresher from that and it pulled you back
00:08:57
when we needed it. But what the in between allowed
00:09:00
you to do is tell a very, very elaborate espionage tale with a
00:09:04
whole lot of pay off in the end. So for anybody who's, you know,
00:09:08
either put this book down or wasn't getting through that
00:09:10
middle section, there is a massive pay off in many ways and
00:09:14
we're spoiling. In case I didn't say that
00:09:16
earlier, we are absolutely spoiling everything.
00:09:18
So if you're still here with us, you know, you're going to find
00:09:20
out about the Ella Dubois of it all and who was the good guys,
00:09:24
who were the bad guys? And there were a couple of
00:09:26
twists and turns. What do you think TV about this
00:09:28
being an espionage story? Were you caught off guard like
00:09:31
me that it leaned into that so heavily?
00:09:34
I was caught off guard, but I was pleasantly surprised.
00:09:38
I really like how Jack Carr writes the espionage portions,
00:09:42
but also the military portions because it's very real.
00:09:45
And one of my favorite things about The Terminalist and Cry
00:09:49
Havoc is it takes you behind the curtains of these very exclusive
00:09:53
warrior groups and you get to go into SEAL Team.
00:09:57
And the Terminalist, you get to go into the SOG team rooms in
00:10:02
Vietnam and it's just so real and something you don't find
00:10:06
anywhere else. And the Delta hangout.
00:10:09
What do you think about the poker game with the Delta Club?
00:10:12
We finally got it. That was one of my favorite
00:10:15
moments from Cry Havoc. Wasn't it special?
00:10:19
I think that's, you know, again, it comes back to like this
00:10:22
fanfiction of it all, like getting the back story behind,
00:10:27
you know, not only how he got that watch, you know, which
00:10:30
plays such a central like element in all the novels going
00:10:34
forward, but also like little, little things like, you know,
00:10:37
ultimately how James likes his coffee, right, like is is
00:10:41
brought on by, you know, other other influences in in this.
00:10:45
And so I think having those little tiny payouts, really, if
00:10:49
you know, if you were to pick up this book for this is your first
00:10:52
book, then you would have no idea.
00:10:53
But obviously the life lifelong readers know and understand
00:10:58
those and appreciate them a little bit better.
00:10:59
So. Yeah, that's amazing thing this
00:11:04
book pulls off and that I I think it's very hard to pull
00:11:07
off. And you could tell Jack Carr did
00:11:09
the work. Is that all the fanservice pay
00:11:12
offs, namely the watch? That's it's certainly number one
00:11:15
for me. The honey and the coffee being
00:11:18
thrown in there in the background is is just like a
00:11:20
nice silly one and interesting. Tom didn't even you know, that
00:11:23
wasn't like his shtick. It would have been interesting
00:11:25
if that was just like what Tom Reese did from the very
00:11:28
beginning. Got it from his father.
00:11:29
It was passed down through generations, but it's not that
00:11:32
even even Tom had to come around to that idea.
00:11:34
And but the the the other big pay off is the PO WS, which the
00:11:40
second-half of the story that becomes what this is all about
00:11:43
that he finds the camp Quinn was being marched through and there
00:11:47
was a Russian, you know, handler who was organizing this and that
00:11:50
they were taking our guys, predominantly the McAfee sod
00:11:53
guys down pilots other people and they were shipping them
00:11:57
somewhere. They were moving them N through
00:11:58
these series of camps through Russian assistance and that's
00:12:02
amazing that we're getting callbacks to the watch which go
00:12:05
back to the very early days in this series that have been
00:12:08
around 7-8 books or whatever. We're also getting massive
00:12:13
connections and pay off for what we just went through in Red Sky
00:12:15
morning. I, I felt like this had a great
00:12:18
connection since even even actually the one with Poe,
00:12:23
whatever book it was that Poe was introduced.
00:12:26
But not only is he mentioned, not only do we hear about the
00:12:28
Poe Ranch, how you know, he was a benefactor for, for paying for
00:12:34
Tom's college and everything, bringing him in, having him work
00:12:36
for him, But then also hearing how the mission to find the PO
00:12:41
WS and, and uncover this Intel. That's what Tom's life was
00:12:45
dedicated to. And we're seeing that play out.
00:12:47
And we as the reader only learned about these things in
00:12:49
the last two James Reese books, really.
00:12:52
So we're making connections going back to the early James
00:12:55
Reese books, to the recent James Reese books, and we're all doing
00:12:58
that in a way that doesn't detract from what the Cry Havoc
00:13:02
storyline is about. It's all embedded purposefully
00:13:06
into Tom's mission on the ground.
00:13:08
There's nothing cheap about this book.
00:13:10
Every word, every chapter, every scene has a payoff.
00:13:14
And another thing that happens with is all the dead drops in
00:13:17
the espionage stuff. We might have had a scene with
00:13:20
this brush pass in an Opera House, trading coat tickets and
00:13:23
getting a different coat. It was just dangling there for a
00:13:26
long while. What was that about?
00:13:29
And again, major pay off. I just cannot believe how he's
00:13:33
able to delicately balance and pull off all the things with
00:13:36
this book. Yeah, no 100.
00:13:38
Percent agree. Is is it the most enjoyable book
00:13:40
in the series to read? No, but I think it might be one
00:13:43
of the most impressive in the scope of what it's able to
00:13:46
accomplish. I.
00:13:47
Don't know TV, how how? Where would you rank this?
00:13:50
Have you read all the books? I have.
00:13:53
Yeah. So where, where would you rank
00:13:54
this and and just jump up the gun out where would you rank
00:13:56
this out of all the books? For my favorite book, I'd say
00:14:01
maybe 3, but I do think it is one of the most impressive books
00:14:07
ever written by any author. Every line seemed like it was
00:14:12
written in 1968. There are even some, like I
00:14:18
think there was a soda truck or something and the brand colors
00:14:22
were different than they were today and I would have never
00:14:24
known that, but it was really interesting to see how he
00:14:27
incorporated all these little details.
00:14:31
It did feel like a, a vessel to take us back in time and to, you
00:14:38
know, the everything that I have experienced in the Vietnam War
00:14:43
has been, you know, through either television or, you know,
00:14:46
some other novels, you know, whether it's MASH, whether it's
00:14:49
Apocalypse Now Platoon. So I felt, you know, I felt like
00:14:57
it, it did a good job of like bringing us back there.
00:15:00
And like I said, you could definitely tell that he
00:15:03
extensively researched this. I do think that, yeah, it's a
00:15:09
hard question to say like whether or not this is this
00:15:12
cracks like might I think I think it's it's top three.
00:15:17
I would say it's, you know, maybe top four.
00:15:19
Like, I don't know. I have a special true believer.
00:15:22
I'm I'm a sucker for that savage son term term limits
00:15:28
terminalist. You know, it's it's hard to top
00:15:31
like those experiences because this one is so different.
00:15:36
You know, while it's while it's very similar in terms of like,
00:15:38
you know, how he writes, how he has matured as an author in
00:15:43
terms of, you know, what we're going to get.
00:15:45
I feel like, you know, Juan, he obviously took a a new departure
00:15:49
going down this route, whether it's, you know, set in the past,
00:15:53
you know, whole new character. But you could tell like he had
00:15:57
this story in his mind for a long time and, you know, finally
00:16:02
was able to get it on on the page and get it in, you know, in
00:16:05
readers hands. And I don't know, I, I just,
00:16:09
I'm, I'm really excited we got this book and I'm, I'm so happy.
00:16:13
It didn't disappoint. Yeah, I'm shocked.
00:16:17
Chris, you actually brought up the rankings this early because
00:16:20
I was going to say at the end of the pod, I don't even know if
00:16:23
it's appropriate. I don't know if that's the right
00:16:25
word, but is it even appropriate to rank this one because it's
00:16:29
like ranking targeted Beirut. Like where does targeted Beirut
00:16:33
fall on your favorite Jack Carr books?
00:16:35
It's it, it almost is. It's apples to oranges in a
00:16:38
sense. So I'll agree with you guys.
00:16:41
It's it's probably somewhere in the middle of the pack for his
00:16:44
books in terms of the readability.
00:16:47
Like it's just not. I mean, you pick up Terminalist
00:16:51
Savage son, you're going to be glued to those things.
00:16:53
You're going to RIP through them.
00:16:55
This one that doesn't have that factor because it almost reads
00:17:00
at times as, you know, a set piece, a set period piece.
00:17:04
It's it could it be targeted Vietnam, you know, is this like
00:17:08
in the targeted series? I, I almost couldn't tell fact
00:17:12
from fiction. I'm, I'm going to maybe, maybe
00:17:16
give it a little criticism here in the fact of we love when fact
00:17:19
and fiction blend in our books, but it's often so clear how it
00:17:23
blends. Like an author makes up a plot
00:17:26
line. So if there's a spy, if there's
00:17:27
a dead drop, if there's a conversation, like, OK, that
00:17:30
dialogue is pure fiction for this story.
00:17:33
Then you get some random details about the setting, the buildings
00:17:36
or whatever. And you're like, OK, that
00:17:37
building was really there. Or this meet really happened in
00:17:39
this place. This one, I was questioning one
00:17:42
too many times if this was real or not.
00:17:45
And I had heard about the Pueblo.
00:17:47
So in my mind, I'm like, I don't know all the details, but I
00:17:52
remember hearing something about a North Korean ship that they
00:17:54
boarded and took and still have, but I thought our guys survived
00:17:58
it. So I'm like, are they going to
00:17:59
kill this captain? I was like, is that really the
00:18:01
captain's name? And I was fuzzy on the details.
00:18:04
So it almost made me work a little too hard to have to
00:18:09
constantly check myself and be like, OK, is this a real fact or
00:18:12
is this part of the story? Is, is this character someone
00:18:14
from history that Jack did research on and I could go look
00:18:17
up or, or is this somebody that's improvised?
00:18:21
We got it all in the end and it was explained, you know, what
00:18:23
was and what wasn't when you're reading it?
00:18:25
It almost took me out of it for a second doing a little too much
00:18:28
history. And maybe that's unfair.
00:18:30
That's just my my personal feeling here.
00:18:32
Yeah. I was going to say like, should
00:18:34
should that be taken as a a negative or is that like should
00:18:38
it be, you know, reversed as like a ultimate positive that he
00:18:42
was able to craft his story so is seamlessly into history that
00:18:47
you know, it was it was, you know, you didn't know where
00:18:51
where one stopped and 1 started. That's why I sound like a fool
00:18:54
saying this as a criticism, but I'm just saying it pure
00:18:56
criticism. If we tried to rank it compared
00:18:58
to a James Reese novel, if you were to let it stand on its own
00:19:02
merits. I said it before, I'm going to
00:19:04
say it again. It's a masterpiece.
00:19:05
I'll agree with TV, one of the most impressive books ever
00:19:09
written in the espionage genre. I think it it could and deserves
00:19:13
to be up there with some of the great, some of the classics.
00:19:17
It's it's just hard once you try to say it's a it's a James Reese
00:19:20
universe story. It's like that's where it has
00:19:23
such a different feel than the other James Reese books, which
00:19:26
is a good thing ultimately, because it's a different time
00:19:29
period. It's historical.
00:19:30
It's supposed to transport you there.
00:19:32
And I will give it the flying high marks for that.
00:19:35
But it does mean it ends up in the middle of the pack in terms
00:19:38
of the James Reese story where I rank it as a book.
00:19:41
And that's why I was almost going to propose.
00:19:43
We don't even try to rank it, but you know, you jump the gun
00:19:46
on that one. So absolute masterpiece as a
00:19:48
historical piece of fiction. I, I don't know how he
00:19:53
ultimately incorporated everything he incorporated into
00:19:57
the story and sold me on it and made it feel real.
00:20:00
It's just so impressive to do. And then it it did interweave
00:20:04
with where we're at with Tom Reese.
00:20:05
Like I said before, the POW stuff, when we got that in, was
00:20:09
it Red Sky Morning where that was first brought up and the
00:20:12
book before that with Poe? I wasn't sure how it fits.
00:20:15
I was like, why is this out here?
00:20:17
I don't know if this piece of information is that critical to
00:20:19
understanding who James Reese is.
00:20:21
But no, it's very critical because it's so important to who
00:20:24
Tom Reese was. And that therefore I feel like I
00:20:27
can go back and read those scenes where we're hearing about
00:20:30
Poe and his estate and ultimately the research about
00:20:33
the PO WS. And it will mean so much more to
00:20:35
me now when I go back and read the last two or three books.
00:20:39
Yeah, I want to bring up this observation these.
00:20:42
So I, I, I gave the hard copy to both my father-in-law and a
00:20:47
close friend of my father-in-law who, who love these books.
00:20:53
And I, I, I solicited, you know, I wanted to know feedback.
00:20:56
Like I wanted to know feedback because they actually both, they
00:21:00
devoured it within like a week. I, I handed the book to 1 and
00:21:05
then immediately handed it off to my father-in-law and he, he
00:21:07
crushed it. They both liked it a lot.
00:21:10
They said like the, the thing that kept bogging them down was
00:21:13
like a lot of times he, he references like 20 different
00:21:18
things. So like whether it's naming like
00:21:20
songs on a jukebox and you know, he'll go like, I don't know, 10
00:21:25
songs deep or naming of different personnel.
00:21:28
Like, did, did, did that bog you guys down at all?
00:21:31
Like the Tom Clancy of it all in terms of, you know, weapons
00:21:36
specs and some of the other like research minutia that that was
00:21:40
in there 'cause so the average reader, these two guys are not,
00:21:44
they're not like us, they're not super fans.
00:21:46
So they're more the average reader.
00:21:49
Yeah, I really like seeing all of the weapons.
00:21:52
Like that's one of the things I really like about a Jack card
00:21:55
book. But I do understand if you don't
00:21:58
know that coming in that that's one of his main things.
00:22:02
And I think if I didn't know some of the names in the SAG
00:22:07
team that goes into rescue the PO WS, then I would be trying to
00:22:14
have the story. But knowing that John Plaster
00:22:18
and John Schrecker Meyer are real people, and I've heard like
00:22:22
many podcasts with them, it was neat to see a real person show
00:22:26
up in a story. But I can see how that could
00:22:29
draw some readers out. Yeah, that's a nice little
00:22:32
tidbit. Like I, I didn't know those
00:22:33
real, real people, but, you know, now that I know them, that
00:22:36
they are like that, that excites me.
00:22:38
Like, that's cool that he decided to put them in.
00:22:41
Yeah. Yeah.
00:22:42
And I'll be honest, those things are not my cup of tea always.
00:22:47
And what I've learned to do with Jack Carr, because a lot of
00:22:50
people, we know the audience eats up the weapon specs.
00:22:53
And I mean, come on, Can you imagine if you're in some, like,
00:22:56
obscure college program that does like, historical weapons or
00:23:00
something and like, that's your thing to do, historical weapons
00:23:03
research? This book's just going to hit
00:23:06
for you. So.
00:23:07
Well, Yeah. Some of the descriptions of the
00:23:09
of of like the old timey weapons bags were interesting to me, had
00:23:13
me looking them up was like, you know, hell, I don't even know
00:23:17
really what modern day weapons look like.
00:23:18
But I was more intrigued with like these classical weapons, if
00:23:21
you want to call them. That unfortunately, again, it's
00:23:23
my fault. So the people who like that, I'm
00:23:25
happy it's in there and I'm happy they get that and I know
00:23:27
you're getting that par excellence.
00:23:29
Anytime I hear like a, even if it's like gear, like a parka or
00:23:33
some sort of like or different types of knives, all the names
00:23:37
of them and the specs of them, I just blank over in my mind.
00:23:40
They don't even process to me only because my personal bias as
00:23:43
a reader, it's not for me. But I'm so glad it's in here and
00:23:47
I'm so glad it's leveraged because I know that's who Jack
00:23:49
is. I know that's who a lot of his
00:23:51
readership is, and I think it adds something to the books and
00:23:53
makes it very unique. And I just had to train myself
00:23:56
to be like, OK, when he's was talking about all the gear that
00:23:58
they're humping, you know, kind of felt like the things they
00:24:01
carried, you know, reading that in high school, like how they
00:24:03
packed the bag and everything, everything they carry.
00:24:06
But doing that in such much more detail with names.
00:24:09
And so, not my cup of tea, but I think I'm glad it's there
00:24:13
because I think it really is what the readers come for a lot,
00:24:16
and particularly the veteran community I think a lot of them
00:24:18
come for. Is that a book they still teach
00:24:22
then? Yeah.
00:24:23
When in high school TV, The things they carried.
00:24:27
I I have the book. I'd recently got it.
00:24:30
I have not read it. Yeah, it's on the shelf behind
00:24:32
me. 10th grade English class shout out to Mr. Minor.
00:24:36
I highly recommend that book. Yeah, sure, sure.
00:24:40
That in a separate piece. Didn't read that one.
00:24:44
OK, there you go. Tim O'Brien.
00:24:46
Was that the author? Tim O'Brien I.
00:24:47
Remember that? Yeah, Yeah, that's probably my
00:24:50
first. Well, I've probably done a
00:24:52
little history on the Vietnam War, but probably just the high
00:24:56
level stuff like, oh, you have to memorize these facts for like
00:24:59
APUS history or whatever. But reading that book was the
00:25:01
one that made it. I guess that's what ELA class
00:25:04
always did, where history class, you just always got the facts.
00:25:07
Growing up, it felt like memorization where ELA class
00:25:10
gave you the stories, built that empathy, gave you the
00:25:13
characters. I mean, honestly, if this book
00:25:17
was a targeted Vietnam book and was only the history, it should
00:25:20
be used in classrooms. I think because of the fiction
00:25:22
aspect of it all. I, I can't declaratively say
00:25:25
that, but like targeted Beirut, I think should be used in
00:25:28
classrooms for sure. This book is so close to being
00:25:31
that way for Vietnam, but it's a fiction story.
00:25:34
Can we talk about I brought up the espionage part, how it lent
00:25:38
it it, it leaned into that much more than I thought it would.
00:25:41
What did you all think about the Dubois storyline?
00:25:44
As much as I wanted to get back to James on the ground and the
00:25:47
and on the Ho Chi Minh trail, I actually really appreciated in
00:25:51
the end what we were doing with that plantation and with the
00:25:54
family. And I still don't know what side
00:25:57
each of them are on. The father was on.
00:25:59
He was turned into the CIA. He was playing both sides.
00:26:01
He was looking out for himself. Ella turns out, mate, I think
00:26:05
that's the biggest reveal. There were a couple of reveals
00:26:08
and twists. I think the biggest one was that
00:26:11
she was really in bed with the Soviets and she was playing
00:26:13
James, but was she or did she actually have feelings for him?
00:26:17
I thought those characters were handled really well.
00:26:19
TV. Yeah, Ella and her father are
00:26:22
one of my favorite characters from the entire Jack Carr
00:26:27
universe. They're great.
00:26:28
And yeah, it's really, I think that was like a throwback aspect
00:26:33
of the book. That's something that you'd find
00:26:35
from an earlier book, maybe in the 60s or something around
00:26:39
there, but it was that twist at the end really got me.
00:26:45
Yeah, and it's like a I'm still kind of reeling over the twist.
00:26:49
Like I, I don't know what, what to believe.
00:26:54
And even like the, the portion we get, we're like we're
00:26:56
establishing his relationship, you know, sort of setting out
00:26:59
the case of like how he's going to, you know, ultimately, right,
00:27:04
become a part of the CIA, right. And seeing him, you know,
00:27:08
interact with her and really like establish this whole love
00:27:11
story. Like I was, I would have just
00:27:13
watched an entire like, or read an entire book about that, you
00:27:17
know, similar, like, you know, the Peacock and the Sparrow kind
00:27:19
of stuff like that, that we've been reading recently or, you
00:27:22
know, tinker, tailor soldier spy esque stuff.
00:27:29
And then, you know, at the same time, we have all these other
00:27:31
relationships with, you know, we have that NSA guy with, you
00:27:35
know, there's just so much backstabbing and espionage going
00:27:38
on between each side. We have the doctor, we have the,
00:27:42
you know, the the mole at that's at the embassy in Saigon, who's
00:27:46
sleeping with, with the prostitute, who's giving
00:27:49
information to the, you know, the French Vietnam doctor, who's
00:27:52
you know, who, whose side is who on, you know, it's, it's super
00:27:56
confusing. And then like at the end, you
00:27:57
know, it kind of kind of comes together, but then you're left
00:28:00
like thinking like, all right, wait, we, we definitely know who
00:28:05
what side James Tom Reese is on. But like everyone else, everyone
00:28:08
else, we don't. And.
00:28:09
There's a bigger fish and there's a bigger fish.
00:28:11
This whole story was just a ruse which ended up we we thought we
00:28:14
got the guy and these higher ups at that, the Russian
00:28:17
intelligence have an even higher mole and a bigger plan to keep
00:28:20
things going. So did we really a win in the
00:28:23
end or did we really uncover this network?
00:28:26
Not really. If we get the right guy, yes,
00:28:29
but also there's a bigger guy and they sold us the small guy.
00:28:33
It's like bigger fish in the pond.
00:28:34
Are we doing that because there's more story to tell or is
00:28:38
it ultimately just sending us the message of This is why we
00:28:40
lost, right? This is how we were defeated by
00:28:43
being behind the 8 ball. You know, it serves both
00:28:46
purposes. You can either tell more story
00:28:47
and say there's still more out there that happens, or you can
00:28:50
just leave it at that and say This is why it was a big failure
00:28:54
on the intelligence end of things and the political end of
00:28:56
things. That was the other thing I
00:28:59
thought he did a really fine job of like critiquing, you know,
00:29:04
you know, in a sense, Monday morning quarterbacking, you
00:29:06
know, how many years removed, but giving us a thoughtful
00:29:10
critique, you know, from a military, you know, former
00:29:12
military personnel about the war.
00:29:17
And, you know, obviously he talked to many people who were
00:29:19
involved with it and studied it extensively.
00:29:23
And and, you know, I felt like his his position was, was
00:29:26
nuanced and it it gave me, you know, a little more clarity.
00:29:32
And, you know, I idea that, you know, because I've always been
00:29:36
taught about the Vietnam War. I was like, oh, you know, we had
00:29:38
protests against it. We were we were losing.
00:29:40
It was something that we should never been into.
00:29:42
But you know, this idea of like literally media has been
00:29:45
involved in turning the tide of everything for how long, you
00:29:52
know, since its, its creation, right.
00:29:54
And to think otherwise, it, it is a business, right.
00:29:57
So it is capitalism at at its finest.
00:30:02
Is naive to think that oh, why, why, why do we only have, you
00:30:07
know, propaganda media now Like it's, it's been it's been there
00:30:11
ever since the beginning. And just to have that lens
00:30:14
exposed on, you know, something that took place in the 1960s,
00:30:19
like for me was a little bit eye opening and interesting to think
00:30:22
about. Yeah.
00:30:24
And there was that really impactful scene where the
00:30:26
Russians were talking about how could we turn Tet into a
00:30:29
positive. It was a tactical loss.
00:30:32
It was a number wise loss. It was a failed, it was a
00:30:35
botched mission. And ultimately, they let the
00:30:38
media, the American media, eat itself and, and it worked.
00:30:44
How do you teach the Tet Offensive in in in school?
00:30:47
Yeah, see, I don't, I don't do, I don't really do that part of
00:30:50
history. I don't do anything 20th
00:30:51
century, don't even do American history.
00:30:53
So while it doesn't come up for me, I'm sure it's this.
00:30:57
Like it's a paragraph in a textbook, right?
00:31:01
Yeah, I was taught about it as if it was a strategic American
00:31:04
loss, like it was. It was ultimately like when I
00:31:08
was reading that part and to get this sort of eye opening, I
00:31:12
mean, yeah, it's written through an American's voice ultimately,
00:31:15
but you know, sort of this other side of the Tet offensive, Tet
00:31:18
Offensive and how when when you look at the numbers, sure it was
00:31:22
it was a loss for the for the North Vietnamese.
00:31:25
But back home and even today, well, I don't know today, but at
00:31:29
least dating myself here, but back when I was, you know, in
00:31:35
let's say 8th grade, learning about that is kind of stuff.
00:31:38
Or high school in 2000 and eight, 2009.
00:31:42
Like yeah, we we were taught the Tet Offensive was ultimately a
00:31:45
North American. Loss.
00:31:46
It was a surprise attack that hit us hard, took us by
00:31:50
surprise, made us send more troops, and make us realize this
00:31:52
is going to be a longer, bloodier conflict than we ever
00:31:54
thought it would be. We doubled down and ultimately
00:31:56
we lost. When what it actually showed,
00:31:59
according to Jack here is it showed actually we can easily
00:32:03
defeat them. They're going to make blunders.
00:32:05
Whatever attacks they make, we can easily counter attack.
00:32:07
Do we have the political will to counter attack?
00:32:10
And ultimately combine that with what's going on with with Laos
00:32:13
and Cambodia, is this going to turn into a war of attrition?
00:32:16
And it's like, we can easily win this.
00:32:18
Like we could have won it. It was just the political
00:32:21
willpower was not there. And the political willpower
00:32:23
wasn't there because of the military industrial complex.
00:32:26
You can make a lot of money off this thing continuing.
00:32:29
You can score a lot of political points with this thing
00:32:31
continuing. And then also the propaganda
00:32:33
side of it. So it's unfortunate.
00:32:35
I do think in K12 education, these things might be
00:32:40
overlooked. They might become a couple of
00:32:42
sentences or a paragraph where you read this book and you
00:32:44
realize Nick Serrano had something to say, like he's a
00:32:50
very interesting person, you know, character.
00:32:52
If he's so cynical of the thing and he's he's at the same time,
00:32:56
he offers Reese this project Phoenix to be like, we've
00:33:00
already lost the war. It's it we're not we're not
00:33:03
going to win it fighting it conventionally the way we've
00:33:05
been doing for all these years. And so we might do we need the
00:33:09
intelligence apparatus to find another way to win us this war
00:33:12
to support the guys or or go off and do secret squirrel things.
00:33:15
And I just think he was a very interesting character of how he
00:33:18
responded to Ted. And that also goes back to the
00:33:22
Dubois because Nick, I did he. Do you like him?
00:33:29
Do you trust him? He recruits Tom.
00:33:33
He brings Tom to the CIA. He always comes in as this hero
00:33:36
of we're going to go do the next adventure together.
00:33:40
I don't know. I got my questions.
00:33:41
Because if you remember, he's the reason they met the Dubois.
00:33:45
He wanted the CIA to turn the father.
00:33:49
He wanted to use Reese as the inn.
00:33:53
He probably knew he would fall for Ella.
00:33:55
Like I think he just, he almost to me seems like this mastermind
00:33:59
who's playing a few steps ahead. He's holding all the cards and
00:34:02
then he even he even like wants to send Tom to do his bidding.
00:34:06
And I'm like, but then they're in the fight together.
00:34:08
So then they're they're like in shootouts together and then
00:34:11
they're backing each other up and that like ultimately they're
00:34:13
really in the shit together and they even go into Thailand
00:34:16
together. The so they're like they, they
00:34:19
have each other's back, but something about him, I don't
00:34:22
know. I just handshake this feeling of
00:34:24
who is this character out there and why does he have so much
00:34:26
sway over my boy Tom Reese? Yeah, I guess they do have that
00:34:32
bond from going to war together, but there are also some
00:34:37
parallels to like a Haverford type character, this mastermind
00:34:42
that recruits somebody to do their bidding and fight their
00:34:46
war. Sure.
00:34:49
Oh yeah, that's great call back. Who got Tom Reese in with the
00:34:53
Dubois in the 1st place? Who wanted to turn the Dubois?
00:34:56
Who was actually pulling those strings?
00:34:58
I was like, it was him. Yeah, I don't know.
00:35:04
And why, you know, like there's even that tense moment right at
00:35:09
the when it when when Reese wakes up after being shot and
00:35:14
he's like, did the CIA, you know, what was that?
00:35:18
The CIA like Tom, like he can't bring himself to quite believe
00:35:22
it. You know, he wants to he wants
00:35:24
to believe it, but and that's never really resolved, right.
00:35:30
I mean, I guess we're supposed to believe that it was the
00:35:32
Russians. Well, yeah, we hear was the
00:35:34
Russian who says he was it that he just missed at the end that
00:35:37
he reveals of like next time I won't, I won't, I won't miss my
00:35:40
shot or next time I won't let you go.
00:35:43
Yeah, I think he was a Tom Reese was a secondary target or
00:35:46
something. He was a.
00:35:47
Secondary target. So the guy you know missed that
00:35:49
shot or pulled that shot and didn't have time to clean up his
00:35:51
mess. But is that true?
00:35:54
Is that accurate, unreliable narrative?
00:36:00
Possibly. Or maybe I'm just too much of A
00:36:02
conspiracy theorist. That you are, Mike.
00:36:06
I didn't see the Ella thing happening though, so.
00:36:08
That that shocked me, Yeah. I thought she was going to end
00:36:11
up being like, somehow Jack's mom or something for a short
00:36:16
while, I mean. For a short while I'm like,
00:36:18
wait, is she the spouse or does something happen here?
00:36:20
Like I don't remember them hearing about the French family
00:36:24
background. So I'm like, I don't think
00:36:25
that's it. But for a short while I was
00:36:27
questioning. I was like, am I supposed to
00:36:29
know her better? Right.
00:36:30
Like, is this name Ella Dubois supposed to mean something to
00:36:32
me? It had me second guessing.
00:36:34
I said the same about Nick Serrano.
00:36:36
I was like, is that, have we, has he been mentioned?
00:36:38
It's like when PO came up, when PO came out of the blue, what,
00:36:42
2-3 books ago, I was like, see somebody I was supposed to know
00:36:44
about. Now are any of the Russians that
00:36:47
we meet, are they, are any of them like real involved with the
00:36:53
whole Russian plot that where we've just, you know, kind of
00:36:56
like culminated with in the last book?
00:36:58
It's a good question. That's one of the problems with
00:37:02
doing the audio books. I listen and don't read the
00:37:05
actual names. I feel like when you read
00:37:08
something like it sticks out more like that you've you've
00:37:10
seen it more. Yeah, I had to put, I had to put
00:37:13
a bunch of names together in my notes just to try to keep
00:37:15
tracks. There's a lot of different
00:37:17
characters. Who were the 2?
00:37:19
There's, I'm trying to look it up, Lavrenenko and ultimately
00:37:23
the guy working for the Americans, his second in
00:37:25
command, Penkovsky, who was going to take over.
00:37:29
Their conversations were interesting because as much as I
00:37:34
were they really great villains, maybe I, I mean, are they the
00:37:39
big bad? Is Lavronenko really the big
00:37:41
bad? He seems to be the bigwig.
00:37:43
But I feel like this other major Devornikov was really the big
00:37:46
bad in terms of on the ground. But but then Lavronenko and
00:37:52
Penkovsky would have these very like, erudite, sophisticated
00:37:55
scholarly chats and it would sometimes go a little too long
00:38:00
and, and like they would quote different historians and
00:38:02
different authors and different poets even talking about the
00:38:05
opera. I was like, are these
00:38:08
conversations the most interesting thing I want to see
00:38:12
the villains doing? How did you guys feel that was
00:38:15
handled the the the Russian masters of it all?
00:38:20
I think it's it was neat to see they're like strategic
00:38:25
perspective. And I think that's something
00:38:27
that we get from a Jack Carr book.
00:38:30
Like you have the Russian like big bad villains, but they're
00:38:36
not the guys like on the ground that you're really worried
00:38:40
about. So I think they're there's that
00:38:43
side to it also. And I think maybe what that's
00:38:47
also showing is just this perspective.
00:38:51
And I guess like how you would get some of that from
00:38:54
conversations with Tom Reese or the whole Tet Offensive thing,
00:39:00
like we haven't, we didn't live that time.
00:39:03
So now we get like the different perspectives around the globe.
00:39:06
But I'm not sure if that was like super necessary for the
00:39:09
story. They provide a lot of like,
00:39:13
exposition. I mean, they're the whole
00:39:16
conduit of how we go into like this whole, you know, dialogue
00:39:21
about the Tet Offensive actually being, you know, a strategic
00:39:24
win, you know, like. Propagandizing.
00:39:26
It. Yeah, exactly.
00:39:28
And I think so, yeah, I, I do agree that a lot of some of
00:39:32
their like you could remove a lot of their scenes and the book
00:39:36
would still like be there. But I think like some of the
00:39:38
nuances that they're, you know, he's sort of trying to get
00:39:42
across through their conversations are interesting.
00:39:47
Yeah. Like the I, I don't know, I
00:39:49
don't I feel like a lot of the Russians in the different
00:39:52
stories, like they they're quote, UN quote big bads, when
00:39:57
in actuality they're just like the puppet masters behind
00:40:01
everything playing this, you know, the strings for someone
00:40:03
else who is, you know, on the ground, whether that be, you
00:40:09
know, an Arab assassin or, you know.
00:40:13
Or he hears that Eldridge, because then we also get the
00:40:16
foreign service officer, State Department weenie who's like
00:40:19
with Mac visa, I've often embedded with them.
00:40:23
He's there in the explosion that is that when AMU dies in the
00:40:26
truck convoy thing. So he's like always around,
00:40:29
turns out to be one of the traitors.
00:40:31
Is he what you'd call the big bad even though he's not like
00:40:34
shooting people? But he's the big bad in terms of
00:40:36
he's the mole, so. I think the big bad is handle
00:40:39
here. The the the biggest villain to
00:40:41
me is the one who guts. Guts Frank Quinn.
00:40:45
Frank Quinn? Yeah, Agreed.
00:40:47
Do we ever get his name? Dubrov It's the search the D,
00:40:50
right? Yeah, that's Devornikov.
00:40:53
He's the one that they like kind of like Bane, right?
00:40:56
They, they, they pull him out of this pit.
00:40:58
He's like a prisoner that you know, he's so bad that they
00:41:03
can't even freaking crazy that and then finally they they need
00:41:06
someone, you know, on the end, and then they pull him out of
00:41:09
prison to to let. Him go.
00:41:12
To let him go right so. Well, which makes the epilogue
00:41:14
even that much more sweet in East Berlin.
00:41:17
Pretty sick with the canal scubaing into East Berlin to, to
00:41:21
track him down. That was a pretty, pretty dope
00:41:25
epilogue that, you know, that's the poetic justice that we all
00:41:28
wanted. And that's a that's a James
00:41:30
Reese story. You know, he learned that from
00:41:32
Tom Reese, who's going in behind enemy lines to take care of
00:41:35
business and basically cross his guy off on his own terminal
00:41:38
list. I thought that was a nice touch.
00:41:43
Yeah. I, I don't know how when we get
00:41:45
to Scorecard soon we're going to handle villains.
00:41:48
I, I don't, I don't think it's the best part of this book, but
00:41:51
the book really doesn't tick unless you have a very intricate
00:41:54
web of spies doing dead drops, who's an agent, who's a mole.
00:42:00
And then the higher ups have to be the ones informed of that or,
00:42:03
or setting that motion, the clock makers, if you will, who,
00:42:06
you know, push the clock and say tick.
00:42:09
The rest of the story doesn't come together without them.
00:42:11
So they're good good, but I don't know who's, if any of them
00:42:16
besides maybe Dvorakov, are really super memorable big bad
00:42:20
villains. What do you say, Mike?
00:42:23
Do you want to go in the scorecard?
00:42:25
Yeah, I think we could, but can we use that as a transition
00:42:28
since our first and TVI don't know if I told you this, but
00:42:31
would you mind doing the scorecard with us?
00:42:32
We have some categories and you'll have to give some
00:42:35
rankings on different categories.
00:42:36
Do you know our? Scorecard.
00:42:38
I have heard it before because I've listened to a bunch of the
00:42:42
Jack Carr ones mainly, but. We'll walk you through it.
00:42:46
All right. And the reason I want to
00:42:48
transition with this because our first one is action and
00:42:51
suspense. We didn't really talk about some
00:42:54
of the really, really good action scenes.
00:42:56
So if you can give us a score one through 10, how you rate the
00:43:00
action and suspense in this book.
00:43:02
But also, maybe share your favorite action scene with us.
00:43:04
Yeah. So I would say because of the
00:43:09
prologue and the whole like falling from the chopper saying
00:43:14
and knowing that's coming up, suspense was like super high the
00:43:18
whole time I'm reading it. Knowing that he's going to end
00:43:22
up getting the guy that gutted Quinn.
00:43:26
I'm going to have to put that at a nine.
00:43:32
And my favorite action scene, I think, is when he sees Quinn
00:43:37
getting gutted and he has to, he has to deal with that, but also
00:43:42
he's alone and he has to deal with his overwhelming force and
00:43:48
just running through the jungle. That whole scene was just
00:43:50
amazing. That that entire jealous you
00:43:54
took it like that entire scene from when I guess it's like,
00:43:57
boom, now we're going to start with Part 2, right?
00:44:00
And we jump back to falling. He has to, you know, figure out
00:44:07
where he is track, you know, it's about to rain.
00:44:10
He finds these two guys on bikes, takes them out, gets all
00:44:13
their stuff is starting to track, you know, and realizes
00:44:17
he's the only guy there is is sort of dealing internally with
00:44:22
I I need to kill these mother fuckers because they're gutting
00:44:26
my my I don't know. I would consider them really
00:44:30
close friends. And then having that mental
00:44:34
fortitude to, you know, I got to he's gone.
00:44:38
I got to get back. And then like the whole like
00:44:40
escape plan, you know, going down that waterfall, going, you
00:44:44
know, down the river, getting to with the finish, you know, he's
00:44:49
finished superior. Back house, Yeah, he's great.
00:44:52
And you know, freaking he's, he's shivering.
00:44:55
He's he probably has malaria, broken ribs.
00:44:58
He literally gets ivied up taped and then they go back in like
00:45:02
just that entirely. So suspenseful there for me.
00:45:07
I'm going like a nine and a half ten.
00:45:09
I'm going high. I'm, I'm coming in high 'cause I
00:45:13
don't know, starting off with like, what the hell are we
00:45:16
doing? You know, sort of like this
00:45:18
chaotic scene of this helicopter going down.
00:45:21
And then like, yeah, we, we slowed it down with the whole
00:45:24
espionage stuff. But trickled in there is, you
00:45:27
know, like the attack on their convoy in in Saigon, a little
00:45:32
bit of the Tet offensive, a little bit of when, when they go
00:45:35
back into, you know, to rescue Ella and her father.
00:45:39
We have like just we, he paces out the action like very well.
00:45:44
And then like, once we get past like Part 2, you know, it's
00:45:47
we're off to the races. Those are the main two.
00:45:50
I would have called out the exact same 2 scenes TV when he's
00:45:55
escaping. Actually, you're right, Chris
00:45:58
was starts on the Ho Chi Minh Trail with the bicyclists and
00:46:01
tracking up the trail and and coming upon this camp, having to
00:46:05
watch this happen to his friend, knowing he's got no other
00:46:08
choice. He can't storm in, you know, he
00:46:10
can't take the shot. He wants to desperately hit
00:46:13
Quinn to put him out of his misery, doesn't get the
00:46:16
opportunity and he's got to flee.
00:46:20
That sequence was a 10 out of 10 on its own.
00:46:22
If that were a short story, it would be one of the best short
00:46:26
stories ever written. And if you didn't put a name for
00:46:29
the character doing that, I would be thinking James Reese
00:46:32
the whole time or at least a Reese clans member, like someone
00:46:36
with the last name Reese like is the perfect person to be doing
00:46:39
that whole sequence. Like that's when I felt like Tom
00:46:43
Reese was just just let Tom Reese be Tom Reese.
00:46:46
Like that scene was everything I wanted to see and hope for when
00:46:50
we heard we would get a story in Southeast Asia.
00:46:54
He. Starts out the action.
00:46:55
He has one bullet, right? Yeah, yeah.
00:46:58
And then yeah, he's counting. Like I think he had one grenade
00:47:01
at 1.2 he picked up somewhere and then got another.
00:47:03
And he ends up booby trapping like the whole forest to go off
00:47:07
around this camp. He he is insanely awesome in
00:47:11
that scene. That scene, the way it's told
00:47:14
almost reminds me of James Reese in Siberia in Savage Sun, just
00:47:18
out in the woods, living off the land, doing the things.
00:47:23
So I'll couple that one also with the opening scene of the
00:47:25
helicopter crash with Quinn and him cutting himself loose.
00:47:29
So that's the new one. I would add to our action
00:47:32
suspense category that we haven't mentioned the opening
00:47:36
couple chapters in the jungle and then like you said, tat
00:47:41
saving go rushing back after the hit at the in Saigon, rushing to
00:47:46
the Dubois plantation. There's even the, the attack,
00:47:50
they're up holed up in the safe house.
00:47:52
You know, I'm like there's just like it's, it's little like
00:47:56
outside of those two things, it's just like little like
00:47:58
snippets of action so. Yeah, I'll, I'll go 9 then for
00:48:03
all those it's it's phenomenal. Next one TV is plot slash pacing
00:48:10
10 points again. What would you say about the
00:48:12
overall plot and pacing? Let's see, I would say maybe.
00:48:18
I mean, I put it high, maybe an 8, though the first time reading
00:48:23
it. Him getting injured or like
00:48:27
really badly injured and getting completely put out of the fight
00:48:29
twice was not the most enjoyable the first read.
00:48:36
But when I listened to it again, I was like, wait, this is
00:48:39
accurate to what anybody in SOG would have, what it would have
00:48:44
been like for them. Because I think it said that
00:48:48
100% of the guys in SOG got injured and 50% of them died.
00:48:53
And I was like, wait, this was like, this was perfect.
00:48:56
Sure. And how many got taken as well?
00:49:00
Yeah. Yeah, and I think it also
00:49:03
allowed this kind of like third level tertiary character with
00:49:07
the nurse. And and I think he fondly
00:49:09
remembered her because at one point he's like, you know, I'm
00:49:14
you was my friend in this war. That nurse deserves better.
00:49:17
It like reminded him of who he's fighting for, that there are
00:49:20
good people out there, whether you're living up in the
00:49:22
mountains, you know, the Highlands of Southeast Asia, or
00:49:25
you're serving in a different capacity as this PT therapist
00:49:28
nurse. Those are the people he fights
00:49:30
for. And I I think he grounded him a
00:49:32
little to realize she is the reason he's back in the fight.
00:49:35
She's the reason he's alive. You know, she brought him back
00:49:37
to health. So if you didn't have him get
00:49:40
shot or you didn't have him get hurt so bad, then you don't have
00:49:43
characters like her as well. Yeah, he needs his humanity.
00:49:47
It gives him the humanity, which is another hallmark of a Jack
00:49:51
our story pacing, though I do we hit the doldrums for a little
00:49:59
while where it's almost one too many dead drops or one too many
00:50:02
backstories of like I love the doctor, the French doctor.
00:50:07
His back story came at a time where it was like I'm still
00:50:09
trying to navigate who everyone is with Russians.
00:50:11
And I love the back story of the the Vietnamese lady who takes
00:50:17
the dead, the dead drops or is like the go between.
00:50:21
This is I I liked a lot of their backstories.
00:50:23
I don't know if they were paced at the right time to get me to
00:50:25
buy into them because I still am wondering like, can we get to
00:50:28
Quinn? Can we get to Reese?
00:50:30
What's happening with the Downtelo?
00:50:31
Like are we going to get there eventually?
00:50:33
But then it cuts to Ted, which then I enjoy and and the Serrano
00:50:36
Dubois that all I I did like spending time with.
00:50:39
So it has its pros and his cons, but a little Ding on this one
00:50:43
for me down to I'm not going to go lower than an 8.
00:50:45
I think an 8's a good call because plot also includes do we
00:50:50
buy into the character motivations?
00:50:52
Do we buy into how everything's connected?
00:50:54
And if you bring back in the Pueblo and you bring back in the
00:50:57
dead drop of the opera and the dead drop with the brick turned
00:51:00
upside down, all in the end comes back to figure out who
00:51:04
sold out who, who's on what side.
00:51:06
And so it all checks. And because it all checks and
00:51:09
the the third third act really pulls it together, I think that
00:51:12
I can't go lower than an 8. Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm right with
00:51:17
you guys. I think an 8's pretty solid, you
00:51:19
know, besides like maybe my, my few gripes about getting into
00:51:25
the weeds with, with a little bit of the research.
00:51:29
I do think, you know, while it was, it's an interesting choice,
00:51:31
right, to start us off with action, kind of go back in time.
00:51:37
But while in theory, I really like that, it's just like there
00:51:42
was a lot and in the end it did pay off.
00:51:44
So I'm not going to think of too much.
00:51:46
But you know, there was like just within that time period of
00:51:51
from the sort of the cut part of Part 1 all the way up to Part 2,
00:51:56
you know, I, I, you could see that like some people would
00:52:00
would not be yeah, driving with that so.
00:52:03
You got to power on. Yeah, it's tough.
00:52:05
It gets long too. I.
00:52:07
Mean that's the longest part of the book, yeah.
00:52:09
Which is surprising because the other stuff is gold like
00:52:12
everything else is is absolute gold.
00:52:14
But that's maybe where we spend the most.
00:52:16
Considering like Part 2 and three are only like you know I
00:52:20
listen at 2 times speed but like 3 hours of of of book time
00:52:24
whereas the the other part was like all the Part 1 was 4 1/2
00:52:28
hours of reading time so. The first third dragged out tad
00:52:35
bit too long or else I would probably be a nine on plot and
00:52:37
pacing. Next up, buy in now TV buy in is
00:52:44
both. Are you buying into the story as
00:52:45
you're reading it? We also bought into the
00:52:48
characters and their decision making in the dialogue.
00:52:52
So buy in is just like this, very comprehensive.
00:52:54
How gripping did this book have you and how bought into you were
00:52:58
you to the plot developments? 5 points.
00:53:01
OK I think I'm going to give it a 5 just because Tom Reese is
00:53:07
one of my favorite characters ever since he first like showed
00:53:11
up every moment with him I just loved.
00:53:15
And the whole time machine aspect of Cry Havoc.
00:53:19
I'm giving it A5. I think I'm.
00:53:23
I'm right there with you, man. Like I was.
00:53:25
I was bought into the idea of this book from the very
00:53:28
beginning. I was unsure, like, how you know
00:53:31
what, what are we even going to go into?
00:53:32
But I felt that Jack just did a good job of, you know,
00:53:36
everything. I wanted him to execute.
00:53:38
He did. Yeah.
00:53:39
Yeah. And like you said earlier, Mike,
00:53:42
the fanservice of it all was interlaced perfectly.
00:53:46
I thought, you know, not, not too, not too showy, not too
00:53:51
forced. And and so, yeah, I'm, I'm fully
00:53:56
bought on this book. I'd love to join you boys.
00:54:02
Really. No, yeah, I agree with the the
00:54:04
fanservice was pulled off so well.
00:54:06
The storylines were intricately developed with history so well
00:54:11
and maybe it maybe I'm double digging it because it was really
00:54:13
my issue with plot and pacing. But I did hit that point first
00:54:17
third where I was like I'm enjoying this but didn't have me
00:54:23
coming back to it. It was almost like it gave me an
00:54:25
opportunity to put it down when A5 on buy in for me is this
00:54:30
thing is RIP roaring through and through.
00:54:32
Like I there is no opportunity for me to put this down and walk
00:54:34
away. But there was a time period with
00:54:36
all the rush. In I think you're confusing plot
00:54:38
and pacing with buy in, but. Well, no, what I'm saying is
00:54:41
like, as I was reading it that that didn't give me that buy in
00:54:44
of a page Turner through and through.
00:54:46
Now we hit certain scenes, certain scenes where a page
00:54:49
Turner bar none. Like I was not letting this go.
00:54:53
But I did hit that point early on so. 4 All right, it's your
00:55:00
score. You got to live with it.
00:55:02
I'm between A4 four and a half. I'm like a 4.2.
00:55:05
We don't do, we don't do quarters here, so.
00:55:08
Four it is all right. Four, it is. 4 it is.
00:55:12
So are you writing, yelling at the Are you writing these scores
00:55:14
down? I'm I, I for some reason I'm
00:55:16
not. I'm usually our.
00:55:17
Our note taker Guy, you're the doctor of the pod.
00:55:19
You. Are you vamp on the on the next
00:55:22
part and I'll yeah, record. TVA couple of ways.
00:55:26
The next part gets a little confusing.
00:55:27
So traditionally we used to do 5 points for bad guys, five points
00:55:31
for good guys. You could also just decide to
00:55:34
make it 10 points flat for characters and Ding where you
00:55:37
got a Ding, give where you got to give.
00:55:38
So whether you want to tell us at a five points for villains, 5
00:55:42
points for good guys, or just 10 points for overall characters,
00:55:45
let it RIP. OK.
00:55:51
I think I'll do overall, give it a nine and a half.
00:55:55
Where's the half point? I think it's going to be with
00:55:58
the with the villains, just because I think you don't get as
00:56:06
much like personal connections with them this time around and
00:56:11
you don't really see what makes them tick.
00:56:15
But other than that, I think all of the characters are very good.
00:56:20
I do like the villains, but I think you don't really see as
00:56:23
much what makes them tick. I think you're right.
00:56:26
I think that's why I can't get 5 out of five on bad guys, A5 out
00:56:31
of five on good guys. If any one of us doesn't get 5
00:56:33
out of five on good guys, I'm going to lose my mind.
00:56:35
So I'm going to go eight overall on characters then.
00:56:39
And then the two point thing is, is the bad guys?
00:56:42
Yeah, same. I think like while ideas of them
00:56:46
were, you know, intriguing, there just wasn't like that
00:56:49
stand out, for lack of a better term, Hank Clark of it all.
00:56:53
You know, this is going back to our mid trap days where you just
00:56:57
have this one central figure that's running at all.
00:56:59
And to hear it was like more of like a villain by committee.
00:57:04
And I feel like sometimes that just dilutes out like the impact
00:57:07
of them that like all of them individually are like
00:57:10
interesting, intriguing and and and scary, you know, but here it
00:57:15
just went kind of like dilutes it a little bit now.
00:57:18
Good guys like can I can I actually like take one from and
00:57:24
give a six to good guys like just, you know, from the his
00:57:30
Vietnam helper. What, what, what was his name
00:57:33
AMU AMU to, you know, Quinn to any of the other, you know,
00:57:40
people that we meet along the way that, that he's involved
00:57:43
with these various, you know, quirky characters.
00:57:46
Hell, the guy that he takes the the Rolex from at the the poker
00:57:50
game the. Delta guys, yeah.
00:57:51
Yeah, like, I don't know, like that's just what that's what
00:57:55
sung in this book was just those, you know, elements of of
00:58:00
good characters. So yeah, good guys.
00:58:02
It's got it. Got to be a A5.
00:58:06
Yeah, I wonder if, if I consider good guys A6, can I give a point
00:58:10
back on Bad Guys then to make it 9 out of 10 on characters
00:58:14
because the good guys can carry their weight with six points.
00:58:18
Oh, let's keep it where it is. But folks, boys, gentlemen,
00:58:22
ladies, gentlemen, everyone out there, we're going to make up
00:58:24
some ground setting. Can you guys just give me a 5
00:58:27
out of 5-6 out of five? Yeah.
00:58:30
Setting five points easy. Is there anything else to say?
00:58:35
No, I think like that's another one of the best parts of this
00:58:39
book is just transporting the reader into this area and, you
00:58:45
know, like I said, making me want to Google and and and and
00:58:51
and visualize it more. I I think, you know, this, this
00:58:57
stands up with any other, you know, Scott Harvath book where,
00:59:03
where we're, you know, taken to places of Europe or whatever.
00:59:08
Yeah, like he, he does a fantastic job.
00:59:11
Master class, are we missing anything?
00:59:16
Like we talked a little bit about the plantation, then you
00:59:18
could go through all the cities from Saigon you need to go to
00:59:21
the bases like in and around Fubai, everything hits and even
00:59:25
the Donang. And then the, the boat market
00:59:28
was that in Thailand where there was the basically the Venice,
00:59:32
they said of Asia or like that was wild and painted really
00:59:36
well. I can imagine this market with
00:59:38
these long boats, you know, the hats and the long boats and
00:59:41
trading vegetables and goods, even little places we go for a
00:59:46
scene or two. I could smell it.
00:59:48
I could taste it, I could feel it.
00:59:49
I'm sweating and perspiring in the, in the climate master class
00:59:57
cover TV. We got five points for cover.
00:59:59
Now I'm going to put in the Riverside chat.
01:00:03
What we do for cover is we definitely put the bulk of our
01:00:06
score, the five points into the hardback, the American print.
01:00:11
But we also like to look at the international versions.
01:00:14
And I didn't think there would be too many international
01:00:17
versions, but there's at least two other covers out there.
01:00:20
I put a link in the chat to Goodreads.
01:00:23
Once you get to take a look at those, well, you could start off
01:00:25
telling us about the hardcover because we all see it.
01:00:27
We all, we all have it. Then there's also two other
01:00:30
covers to talk about. I'll just open it up saying I'm
01:00:32
giving A5 across the board. Love the hardback.
01:00:37
Yeah, I'm also giving it A5. I also love how it's very
01:00:41
different from the other Jack Car books.
01:00:43
You can immediately tell which book is not the James Reese like
01:00:48
modern one. Yeah, it is different and and I
01:00:53
like the color scheme and I like the cityscape and it looks like
01:00:56
it's on fire. Is it napalm?
01:00:58
I love all that, but you. But as different as it is, you
01:01:01
also get the similarity of that kind of silhouetted figure
01:01:04
because that's been in a lot of them as well.
01:01:06
Yeah. But I do like that the
01:01:09
silhouetted figure isn't front and center, kind of just blends
01:01:12
into the dark ominous night sky. And it does allow the the ruins
01:01:17
and the the the landscape to take front stage.
01:01:21
Do we know what city that is, Mike?
01:01:24
No. It was like like a famous temple
01:01:28
in like Saigon or or Hanoi. Probably right, but.
01:01:34
Yeah, or, or is it just some village?
01:01:38
Yeah, you know, with, with like the, you know, it's quote UN
01:01:42
quote like a sun. Is that a sunset, sunrise?
01:01:45
I don't know. But it also kind of reminds me
01:01:48
of this idea of, you know, like napalm burning, you know, just
01:01:51
like the, the, the city, the whole triple canopy burning.
01:01:56
And that's a theme of this is the human cost.
01:01:59
I mean, if you think about the photograph, right, one of the
01:02:02
most famous photographs ever taken of the is it that girl and
01:02:06
she's naked and everything's on burned out.
01:02:09
Like it evokes that human suffering element of what this
01:02:13
war did to people and land. Can I bring in the others
01:02:19
though? Because the UK edition, if you
01:02:22
see it there, I think it says it's the Kindle edition, but I
01:02:24
wonder if it's printed in the UK.
01:02:26
There's two different ones listed as UK.
01:02:29
One has a chopper and the guy's humping through the the jungle,
01:02:35
and the other one has this figure almost coming out of one
01:02:39
of those napalm explosions. Yeah, I like that one.
01:02:42
I like both. Of them dude, those also hit
01:02:45
usually TV. When we look at the
01:02:47
international versions, they're just downright silly.
01:02:49
Like straight up silly. Especially once we start getting
01:02:51
the German ones. The Polish ones, I don't know
01:02:54
man, they're marketing some crazy shit to Europeans.
01:02:56
These two, they hit hard. Yeah, that's a Huey, right it.
01:03:03
Looks like it. I mean that just screams like,
01:03:07
you know, when I think of Vietnam, I think of Huey's I
01:03:09
guess because I watched a lot of mash with my grandfather, but
01:03:12
like no, both of these covers are are really cool.
01:03:14
I I like them a lot yeah, definitely elevates.
01:03:18
I, I was, I was already going to give high, you know, high score
01:03:23
to the cover for for the original, but when you throw in
01:03:28
those other ones I, I may, I may have to go 5 four now I.
01:03:31
Go 5, I think, yeah. You got to go 5, I'll go.
01:03:35
TV Where do you end up? Yeah, I'm going to have to give
01:03:37
it a 5I really love all of the covers.
01:03:41
Another thing is if you have the hard cover, it has the
01:03:45
helicopter on the spine which is really cool.
01:03:48
Yes. That's like the texture as well.
01:03:52
That's awesome. It's.
01:03:54
Just some intention to detail. Yeah, yeah.
01:03:58
Well, we rounded out TV with a free space.
01:04:01
You get to give a bonus five points for your winner of the
01:04:04
book. Just it could be a character,
01:04:06
could be a scene, it could be anything.
01:04:08
Just what do you want to shout out as the big winner here?
01:04:13
Man, that's tough. I think I'm going to have to go
01:04:19
with the the Easter eggs and the callbacks, Eve, the watch and
01:04:25
some other characters and the coffee.
01:04:29
I have to give it a. Is this a 5?
01:04:32
Five points, yeah. Yeah, you can give it 5 out of
01:04:34
five. Nice, Chris.
01:04:39
Damn, you took a lot of them. Can I give it to Tom Reese?
01:04:45
Like, I don't know, just the element and, and the, the
01:04:49
execution that Jack did in terms of developing this character
01:04:54
who, you know, has kind of been like off to the side, sort of
01:04:58
playing this shadow, this ghost that we've experienced with.
01:05:02
And then to to really see him come to life on the page and to
01:05:06
have those elements of to to be his self.
01:05:08
But then also see like elements of James Reese in him, you know,
01:05:13
like to know that he is the father of James Reese.
01:05:17
And we'll pass on a lot of the stuff.
01:05:19
And then it's, it's kind of, you know, I'm sort of like trying to
01:05:22
mimic the OR piggyback on T VS Easter egg a thing because I
01:05:28
think that that is one of the best things.
01:05:30
But yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm going to give it to James Reese
01:05:32
or Tom Reese. Yeah, that's good.
01:05:38
I'm going to cop out and give a give a couple here because only
01:05:41
because I I can't leave any of them out.
01:05:43
First, I'm going to go with the way the Pueblo was worked in.
01:05:46
I think that encapsulates what Jack wanted to do with the real
01:05:49
history linking up with his story, where could have become
01:05:54
just a list of facts that are in the background.
01:05:56
Like you said earlier, Chris, you know, someone's like, why
01:05:58
did we need 20 songs that are on this jukeboxer?
01:06:00
Why do we need the names of all 12 guys on this team going in?
01:06:04
I think Jack wants to pay honor and homage to the time, but also
01:06:10
homage to the people present at that time.
01:06:14
And I think working in the Pueblo the way he did and then
01:06:16
ripped from the headlines in his little epilogue and author's
01:06:19
note at the end showing the outcome of that.
01:06:23
You wrote a historical fiction plot that is so authentic and so
01:06:28
real. That is my free space.
01:06:30
I I got to mention though, the jungle scene we talked about
01:06:32
before the escape, the weather going up the Ho Chi Minh Trail
01:06:36
and then trying to escape out the river to to the South
01:06:39
Vietnam border. Some of the best action writing.
01:06:42
Like I said, if that were a short story, it would be one of
01:06:45
the most phenomenal things ever written on its own.
01:06:48
And then third one is the Dubois.
01:06:49
I mean, things we've talked about all throughout the pod,
01:06:51
but great side characters. They're playing both sides.
01:06:54
You get this idea of a family, almost like the Hastings caught
01:06:58
in a part of the world where they're not supposed to be.
01:07:02
But to them, it's heritage, it's who they are, it's their
01:07:05
identity. It what happens when the rest of
01:07:07
the world doesn't want you there or you're caught between two
01:07:11
superpowers and you just want to live your life and treat the
01:07:14
people well and and work the land.
01:07:16
So I really think that was a call back to the Hastings, but
01:07:18
also call back to the, you know, the fog of war and the the
01:07:22
nastiness that is these battles and who gets caught in the
01:07:26
middle. So that was my big three.
01:07:29
And unfortunately, I just realized I'm wearing an Apple
01:07:32
Watch. Sorry, Jack Carr, I know you
01:07:33
don't trust people wearing Apple Watches.
01:07:35
So yeah, that kind of makes the Rolex stuff hurt a little.
01:07:39
But let's let's take that off. Let's move that off screen now,
01:07:43
about an hour and a half too late.
01:07:47
So that leaves us with Mike. You're coming in the lowest with
01:07:53
a 44, still a very good score, followed by me with a 46 and TV
01:07:58
with a 46.5. I think I think that's pretty
01:08:01
accurate. Like this is a a a very good
01:08:05
book, you know, like the the crack 40 we consider to be, you
01:08:10
know, a solid and this one is, you know, up there with with
01:08:15
with some of the best SO. And I was a little harsh at
01:08:17
times. I think that's what brought me
01:08:19
down to 43. But absolutely respect the 45 or
01:08:22
46. I could have easily gotten there
01:08:24
and think I would if I had read it a second or third time.
01:08:28
Yeah, I'm intrigued to reread this book because I knowing like
01:08:32
knowing like some of the the the twists and turns as you go along
01:08:36
would be interesting to revisit. So.
01:08:39
I think I'd have an easier time tracking some of the espionage,
01:08:42
dead drops, hand offs and other things like, oh, you're you're
01:08:45
this person who's going to do that thing or you're this one
01:08:47
who's playing that side. I think I could track it a
01:08:50
little better. So TV, thanks for having us on
01:08:54
your podcast. Check out terminal vengeance
01:08:57
YouTube channel. We've we've had you on before.
01:08:59
We plugged you before people know who you are.
01:09:01
But we're we're really glad to have featured on your show and
01:09:04
really glad to have you back here again to talk Cry havoc.
01:09:08
I had a blast, thank you for having me.
01:09:10
Yeah, thanks for coming, man. This was fun.
01:09:13
Great to have TV on again. Just know you're always welcome
01:09:17
here on the No Limits podcast. But before we get out of here,
01:09:20
we need to thank our patrons, our Deputy Director Sherry F and
01:09:24
Braddy, our special agents, Adam, Mike, Ben, Darrell,
01:09:28
George, Matt, Dawn and Chris. Please subscribe bright and
01:09:31
review to all three seasons of No Limits.
01:09:33
You can find this@thrillerpod.com or on
01:09:35
Twitter and Instagram at Thriller Podcast.
01:09:39
And as always, just let Tom be Tom.
01:09:54
Can I give you a quick postscript for the audience?
01:09:57
Tyler Buer wasn't here tonight. I did invite him and then it got
01:10:01
a little crowded with four people with having TV
01:10:04
logistically just made sense to move him to a later recording.
01:10:08
But I'm also really happy we'll get to hear Tyler's reaction to
01:10:12
our reaction. So I think the the other Jack
01:10:15
car superfan among us, maybe even more superfan than than you
01:10:18
and I, Chris may be up there with tied with TV.
01:10:21
Tyler Buer. We're going to get his thoughts.
01:10:23
We're going to welcome him back on the pod.
01:10:24
We have to hear his rankings, but maybe he can also have a
01:10:27
little like metacognitive dialogue, you know, with us
01:10:30
after listening to our take and then we'll get to have his his
01:10:33
response. That will also give me an
01:10:35
opportunity to write a Limerick since I wasn't able to leave the
01:10:38
people with a Nope no limits pod Limerick tonight.
01:10:41
So it'll go. Keep them waiting.
01:10:43
More Cry Havoc content on the way.
01:10:46
I want to watch a movie of this. Dude.
01:10:49
Or TV show. Dude, I just want to see Tom
01:10:52
Reese hunting through the woods in the background of Forrest
01:10:54
Gump.