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00:00:15
Hey guys, Mike and welcome back to No Limits.
00:00:20
The Thriller podcast. Although I do not have Chris
00:00:26
with me today. I am amped up to share with you
00:00:32
the second half of my interview with Andrews and Wilson from
00:00:36
last week. We not only talked about
00:00:39
Darkfall the third book in the shepherd series, but I
00:00:43
absolutely had to ask them a few questions about sons of Valor to
00:00:49
violence of action. This is the second book in the
00:00:55
chunk Redman sons of Valor series and it is off the chain.
00:01:05
I'm going to say besides oath of loyalty which has a very special
00:01:09
place in my heart as one of my favorite Mitch wrap books, sons
00:01:13
of Valor to comes in second as the book of the Year.
00:01:18
This was an incredible read. I think it's Jeff and Brian at
00:01:24
their Peak. This is their consent to kill.
00:01:27
It is a masterpiece, it takes the time to develop a story.
00:01:32
It brings back the characters it It's basically the sequel and
00:01:36
part 2 to the first book. I mean, it's aptly named and
00:01:41
boy. Am I glad that?
00:01:42
That's what it is. It is just hitting on all
00:01:47
cylinders guys. If you have not checked out
00:01:51
Andrews and Wilson, now is the time.
00:01:53
Whether you start with the shepherd series, go back to
00:01:55
their Tier 1, Dempsey series, or jump into sons of Valor, which
00:01:59
were talking about today. So it is a shorter interview
00:02:02
that you'll get at the end and it is indeed spoiler filled.
00:02:06
So just a warning like most of our episodes.
00:02:09
There are spoilers for Sons of Valor one and two please please
00:02:14
hit pause right now and then come back and listen to this
00:02:18
episode after reading sons of Valor 1 and 2.
00:02:22
If there is a book or a series I don't want to spoil for you.
00:02:25
It's this one consider yourself warned.
00:02:31
Before I play for you, however, their interview and I hope Chris
00:02:35
will forgive me here for the first time ever.
00:02:37
I want to do a solo scorecard. I have not made up my mind yet
00:02:44
and I have not scored this book yet.
00:02:47
So I thought I'd jump on here, hit record and kind of think out
00:02:51
loud as I go through my scorecard for this book.
00:02:55
We don't use the Thriller scorecard for every book, but
00:03:00
This one might just come out a perfect 50 out of 50.
00:03:05
And then case, that's where I settle and where I land, I
00:03:08
wanted you to hear the reasoning behind it.
00:03:12
Sons of Valor to on action and plot.
00:03:17
He's getting a 10 and a 10. The action is absolutely next
00:03:25
level. The final two sequences of this
00:03:31
book. That involves the convention
00:03:33
center and a shootout, and a terrorist plot is so
00:03:38
unbelievably scary. And the way you are just in the
00:03:42
action, whether you're with saw up in the overhang as if you're
00:03:46
dangling from the rafters trying to play a sniper on sniper,
00:03:50
shootout game and you've basically co-opted a maintenance
00:03:54
worker. You know, you're in Dubai to be
00:03:56
your your wingman and to be your Watcher and the way he can
00:04:01
instruct him. Him and give him what he needs
00:04:03
in that moment and talk him through it while.
00:04:05
Also purely focusing and all the adrenaline and focus that that
00:04:10
you need to take that shot and he's guessing most of the time
00:04:15
he's kind of looking through the scoreboard or whatever it is
00:04:17
that the thing hanging from the rafters and trying to figure out
00:04:20
where the guy would be is looking through walls and
00:04:22
realizes there's no room to lay down because this maintenance
00:04:25
worker said, there's a ladder in the middle of the platform, so
00:04:28
he's in a standing position. He's not prone.
00:04:31
All of that is happening. While you're on the ground with
00:04:36
the other operators and of course you have W.
00:04:40
Whitney W heels. She's in the ears of everybody
00:04:43
that analyst she's playing mother.
00:04:46
And I just, oh, it's near Perfection.
00:04:52
That's not even to mention. once they realize, The attack is
00:04:58
actually closer to home than they would have.
00:05:00
Thought not only the convention center in Dubai, did they hit?
00:05:04
But they were going to hit local convention centers back home and
00:05:08
different military-industrial DOD.
00:05:11
Contractor defense conventions. But that massive he'll turn when
00:05:18
they realize it's saws family under attack.
00:05:23
This whole thing was a faint to throw them off their heels.
00:05:27
When what, the terrorists really wanted was to hit you where it
00:05:30
hurts, so they're racing into the suburbs and just it's so
00:05:37
personal and so emotional. And A family that we haven't
00:05:42
really even met. I just care so deeply for and
00:05:47
I'm my heart is breaking for them hiding in the center of the
00:05:51
house. And this like utility closet,
00:05:54
who's coming will daddy burst through that front door and be
00:05:57
there for them. But chunk realizes.
00:06:00
If this were any other operation, that didn't involve
00:06:03
family know the sniper is not the one kicking in the door.
00:06:07
He's got to play God, he's got to be up there on OverWatch.
00:06:12
He's got to eliminate the threat.
00:06:13
We know another snipers out there.
00:06:15
So chunk has to go in. And the way saw has to deal with
00:06:21
not going not rushing home, the instinct is to rush home and he
00:06:27
can't do it. He knows it's better to let
00:06:29
chunk do it, it's got to be one of the hardest decisions and you
00:06:33
feel that weight as he's making it that action, isn't that
00:06:38
sequence is enough to give it a 10 out of 10, not to mention how
00:06:42
the plot got here. It is amazing to watch.
00:06:49
Whitney W trying to gather Intel, trying to put the pieces
00:06:54
together or in her opinion, untangle, the not.
00:06:58
I love this metaphor of the not that she has tattooed on her arm
00:07:02
and she's tracing it. She's the one who untangle these
00:07:06
plots and put the pieces together, even when no one else
00:07:09
can see what's really going on. It's brilliant.
00:07:13
Just what a tag-team, what to do o Chunk in W heels, although,
00:07:18
can we call her Bills anymore. Has she grown out of a nickname
00:07:22
and earned the final respect of the group?
00:07:25
Although monikers like that, you know, they die, they don't die.
00:07:28
So heels is, gotta stick around heels as it's just a great name.
00:07:33
What a scene from book 1. I'm gonna be honest here, guys,
00:07:37
I had largely largely put sons of Valor one knot on the back
00:07:42
burner because I loved it, but it wasn't on the Forefront of my
00:07:45
memory. Oh yeah, that was great.
00:07:48
But it wasn't thinking about it. Or heels going on the run with
00:07:51
chunk that I love that run where he's trying to get her to care a
00:07:54
little bit about Fitness and and health.
00:07:58
It was so great when I was reading it but I forgot it yet.
00:08:03
This book does its job in drawing you right back in right
00:08:07
back in and then speaking of plot perhaps my favorite part of
00:08:13
the plot, that's not action-based.
00:08:16
Is reliving, and going back to the wedding in Afghanistan, and
00:08:23
how Kassim had to cross the border to go see his sister.
00:08:28
And he was roped into his brothers terrorist plot and the
00:08:32
Drone strike. And when he loses everything,
00:08:36
you're brought right back to that moment and that is having a
00:08:40
major influence, an extraordinarily profound
00:08:44
influence on his decision. Moving forward.
00:08:48
Then you have on top of that, his Persona, as an engineer, a
00:08:53
westernized, engineer living in London working for this major
00:08:58
Aerospace firm. And it's just incredible.
00:09:02
The pressures you put on this character and how that drives
00:09:05
the plot, it's not an artificial manufactured plot, it's a plot,
00:09:10
born of history of family. And of the consequences of Prior
00:09:15
actions and actions family members took and actions.
00:09:19
The Americans took, you know, in some way you can argue, we
00:09:22
created him, I wouldn't say that's my final conclusion but
00:09:26
you could see from his perspective and how he's being
00:09:29
played made by Hamza the leader of Al qadar.
00:09:33
This terrorist cell, he's being manipulated, he's being groomed.
00:09:38
It's extremism and how its manufactured People aren't born
00:09:44
inherently evil, they're exposed to evil, they're groomed by evil
00:09:49
and Hamza is doing that in the most cunning.
00:09:55
The most cunning way possible and it's disgusting and to watch
00:10:01
who we could have been sympathetic to a villain who we
00:10:05
could attempt to try to understand what he's lost, and
00:10:09
how he's gotten involved. His sister, his brother. we can
00:10:14
understand, even if you didn't agree with what Brian and Jeff
00:10:19
did was create a terrorist who the door was open for a
00:10:26
reckoning, you know, the door was open to taking that step to
00:10:31
Redemption. And realizing what you've done
00:10:35
and how many times did you believe diba was on the
00:10:40
precipice of convincing him to defect and the relationship with
00:10:44
diba is unbelievable. Huh, so much is happening.
00:10:49
Let's get back to the scorecard though.
00:10:51
All of those items advancing the plot make it a 10 out of 10.
00:10:57
Nothing is manufactured, nothing's artificial.
00:10:59
It's all organic based on the characters lives.
00:11:03
The setting that has been drawn for us and the motivations they
00:11:06
would have based on their background.
00:11:09
So 10 out of 10 on action, 10/10 on plot.
00:11:14
And the by in the way you hear me speaking.
00:11:17
There is not a dull moment in this book, there's not a moment
00:11:21
to check out because even if the action isn't happening, that's
00:11:25
not what we mean by buying Buy in.
00:11:28
Is how much do you want to stay with the characters live in
00:11:31
their universe and be a fly on the wall?
00:11:34
Well, let me tell you. It's a perfect 5 out of 5 here,
00:11:39
even if it's just W trying to untangle a plot and which he's
00:11:44
actually deployed with the guys and living in their barracks.
00:11:47
And they're playing video games, or I forget what, movie, they're
00:11:50
even watching. But do they just keep on
00:11:52
quoting, you know, Anchorman or something?
00:11:55
And she's just like she's had enough of it.
00:11:58
She's just in her room 24/7. Hyper focused on the threat that
00:12:02
she believes is out there. You're there.
00:12:06
You want to be there, you want to watch her do her thing?
00:12:10
You want to see the guys? Joking around, you know,
00:12:12
fuck-all attitude. You want to be in every moment
00:12:15
of this, the deadly, the serious, and the jovial.
00:12:18
So 5 out of 5 on by in you heard me talk about the bad guys.
00:12:24
And the good guys, this cast of characters is fantastic, you
00:12:28
know, just mention heels and chunk two characters you loved
00:12:31
in the first book. You love even more now, And you
00:12:34
want to see them work together, they have to go undercover and
00:12:38
oh, the book just gets you thinking, I don't want them to
00:12:41
have an attraction for one another.
00:12:43
And, you know, he was always quite a father figure, but maybe
00:12:47
this Uncle figure, this Mentor, this larger-than-life role model
00:12:52
teaching her things. And he was always said, older
00:12:55
kind of kind of persona in her life and when she's looking
00:13:00
stunning at this op where she has to pretty much be
00:13:03
Undercover, She Nails the role by the way, just Nails it, but
00:13:07
the way he's noticing her and her in that light changes, how
00:13:11
he thinks about her, I'm like, no, no, no.
00:13:13
I don't want to see relationship, develop their but
00:13:16
they don't go there. They don't go there, will they
00:13:18
go there? I don't know.
00:13:21
But again, I'm bought into it. I don't want him to go there,
00:13:25
but if Brian and Jeff choose to go there, I'm going to have to
00:13:28
deal with it, you know? So the fact that there's hints
00:13:30
and seeds I think they understand that, I think they
00:13:34
understand readers will be conflicted of how this
00:13:37
relationship is seemingly coming off.
00:13:39
When they have to act like they're a couple, we want it to
00:13:42
just be acting, but at moments, it seems more than acting, and I
00:13:46
bet that's what's going on, you know.
00:13:47
So they're gonna have to deal with that.
00:13:49
And I hope it doesn't happen. But again, it's life.
00:13:52
The traction might be there. You might feel it.
00:13:54
The question is, are they going to choose to run with it?
00:13:58
Are they going to address it like adults and say sure it
00:14:01
seemed something. But we, it doesn't we can make
00:14:04
of it. What we want to make of it.
00:14:07
The fact that I didn't want those two to ever think of each
00:14:10
other that way, but it's come up, that maybe there's a door to
00:14:13
open that path again. It just grips you and brings you
00:14:18
an even if it's something you ultimately don't want and you're
00:14:20
saying, no, no, no, don't go that route.
00:14:22
It's still pulling you in and they're doing it while on
00:14:26
Mission. So what better time, you know,
00:14:28
at the High Society in Dubai, the big money, a big heavy
00:14:32
rollers and the stakes are life and death.
00:14:35
So all of that's happening Going right in the moment.
00:14:40
The bad guys, I mentioned it. And here I want to shout out
00:14:44
something that the boys mentioned in our interview
00:14:47
coming up the Arc of a villain. I can't really think of too many
00:14:53
other two book arcs where the villain has taken me on such a
00:14:59
roller coaster. Kassim is almost the perfectly
00:15:04
crafted villain. He starts sympathetic, he makes
00:15:08
choices you. Wish he didn't make but he has
00:15:11
an opportunity and chances are in front of him to walk away
00:15:14
from that life yet. He's just pulled deeper and
00:15:18
deeper into it. And if further reinforces how
00:15:22
you can see radicalization happening, How you can
00:15:26
understand why he's going, down this path.
00:15:29
That Hamza is dangling in front of him.
00:15:34
The life of Retribution reminding him of his family that
00:15:39
day at the wedding, even though he hates them for it.
00:15:42
Because all evil, all terrorism is motivated by that hate.
00:15:46
He's using that hate to make him feel like he's gaining something
00:15:51
that by having that hate, remembering that hate
00:15:53
cultivating. That hate.
00:15:55
You're turning it towards an ultimate purpose which is the
00:15:57
right path and Speaking of hate, I hate him for doing that.
00:16:02
I hate Hamza for doing that because I how badly do you want
00:16:07
to see diba fulfilled? They had to get married last
00:16:10
book. They didn't want to.
00:16:12
It was all part of the cover to move into the west and get this
00:16:14
job as an engineer. But you love her.
00:16:18
You know, she's so innocent and she's so powerful in a powerless
00:16:24
situation that you're just hoping diba can win big, she
00:16:29
subservient to him, but you get the sense that she doesn't need
00:16:34
to be. She chooses to be because she's
00:16:37
hoping it's a, it's a obedience born of a loving relationship
00:16:41
but it's not. And the reason it's not because
00:16:44
this Hamza walks into their life quite literally Poses himself in
00:16:48
their home. And although scenes, you're just
00:16:52
so torn on the inside of. Can he run away?
00:16:54
Kenny walk away but the opposite happens, he becomes Hamza.
00:16:59
I am become evil, he tells himself and it leads him down a
00:17:03
path of darkness and we're on that Journey with him the whole
00:17:07
time. Bad guys, 5 out of 5.
00:17:10
Good Guys, 5 out of 5 and now the setting you've heard me gush
00:17:16
over whether we're reliving the Drone attacks, the
00:17:19
afghanistan-pakistan border crossing not to mention that
00:17:22
picture. one picture that W is analyzing with, you know, she
00:17:28
calls a couple of people makes these connections She notices
00:17:32
someone's leg in the corner that he's not alone in the car.
00:17:34
Crossing the border. There was somebody there with
00:17:37
him, was this a wedding guest, a family member.
00:17:40
Somebody innocent do, they actually have bad intentions?
00:17:43
And that you're questioning that the whole time.
00:17:45
Chunkin W almost come to a point where they say they interview
00:17:49
him, they had him and they let him go, oh my god, when they
00:17:53
capture him, and they're giving him medical attention after they
00:17:57
sneak him out. it's just like, He played it.
00:18:02
So well, he became Hamza, he literally tricked them.
00:18:08
There was no going back. You tricked W even though
00:18:13
ultimately she didn't deep down by it. they were duped and he
00:18:18
walks and it's just like, I was taken back to that scene in the
00:18:24
car that I read, what year over year, two years ago, and didn't
00:18:28
necessarily even remember. But I was there again, I was at
00:18:32
the wedding with the Drone strike, and then I'm at the
00:18:34
convention center in Dubai. I'm undercover with w and chunk
00:18:39
when they're on their mission and then Dimension the Suburban
00:18:43
setting of saws house and saw his family.
00:18:48
He's trying to find like different Eaves of the roof
00:18:52
calculating angles that he know he can't get hit from and that's
00:18:56
happening in a neighborhood. A lot of us, a lot of us in this
00:18:58
demographic are familiar with is single-family Suburban home
00:19:03
outside of a major city. And now we've got a sniper shoot
00:19:07
out. And now we've got a home
00:19:09
invasion, an attempted kidnapping, and two, operators
00:19:15
standing against it without really a lot of OverWatch at
00:19:19
first from from above, it's just like, Oh my God.
00:19:24
So real, it's so real setting five out of five.
00:19:29
Absolutely. Even just the Streets of London
00:19:31
when he's going to the different neighborhoods in this
00:19:33
underground. I didn't even mention this
00:19:36
underground Spice Shop. Now, we gets into the spice
00:19:39
shop. And originally with the hackers,
00:19:42
or some funny dialogue, he's treating them nicely and kindly
00:19:47
like the real kasim. But he realizes, that's not how
00:19:53
this organization Works, he's being disrespected.
00:19:56
Any sort of kindness is weakness when he flips and pretty much
00:20:01
starts smacking him up and destroying this room.
00:20:04
And I'm like, oh man this is real Kassim is going to I then
00:20:08
Nando's I didn't even mention talking setting.
00:20:11
What Kim the British intelligence operative is doing
00:20:15
to cultivate diba that way they have a back door in case Kassim
00:20:19
is bad. Said they wanted a, you know, a
00:20:22
back-up plan. Oh my God, the conversations at
00:20:25
Nando's. And she just wants to take out
00:20:28
chicken. She just wants to bring a meal
00:20:29
home. Diva just wants to put food on
00:20:32
the table, not only for her husband, but just a treat for
00:20:36
herself. It's her safe space.
00:20:39
And even the Brits, the good guys are invading her safe
00:20:41
space. Like the Innocence that we want
00:20:44
for diba is not only being taken by Kassim and exploited.
00:20:49
It's being exploited by the good guys because it needs to be yet.
00:20:53
She's caught in the middle. A relationship.
00:20:56
That was arranged enforced. And transported because of a
00:21:01
terror Network and they were going to play a deep role in
00:21:03
this drone attack and him working undercover at the
00:21:06
aerospace engineering firm. Yet, I love them.
00:21:11
I care about them. I want kasim and diba to find
00:21:15
that hope to live in peace, and get away from it.
00:21:18
All, why do I want that so badly?
00:21:21
And then this book tears it out from under you.
00:21:23
It just goes in the complete opposite of what you were hoping
00:21:26
it could be. And now, book 3, I need it, I
00:21:30
need the consequences of that. I need the consequences of him.
00:21:34
A somewhat redeemable figure going into territory that may
00:21:38
border on irredeemable. It's perfect.
00:21:42
It's absolutely beautiful. Now, this is a perfect score
00:21:47
card so far. Let's talk about the cover.
00:21:53
What a great design. I've been a big fan of all the
00:21:59
Andrews and Wilson's covers, I think the color scheme of the
00:22:03
bright orange and the dark tonal.
00:22:06
Orange has been really good. The text is a perfect font with
00:22:13
a gray and blue tones. Where the cover is, where the
00:22:18
title is written. It's just a really good solid
00:22:22
layout. You got the team who I can only
00:22:25
imagine Is chunk Riker and saw you've got the helicopters.
00:22:30
And oh mmm. I was about to say this can't be
00:22:34
a five out of five cover for a couple of reasons.
00:22:38
Because I kind of like that Suburban feel of this book
00:22:41
eventually is about when terrorism hits home.
00:22:45
And without that something about the sniper scene because saw, I
00:22:48
mean, a man saw is a huge part of this book.
00:22:53
But then I just saw the tower the Burj Khalifa so we are
00:22:57
absolutely smack in the middle of Dubai and you know what I am
00:23:00
here for it. I like it at that that rendering
00:23:04
of the Burj Khalifa in the background with the birds coming
00:23:07
in, just did it for me. I'm going five out of five on
00:23:13
the cover of Sons of Valor, which can only mean one thing.
00:23:18
It's a perfect 50. It's a 50 out of 50.
00:23:22
Chris, forgive me. If you disagree, you haven't
00:23:25
read the series, I'm hoping you do.
00:23:27
If there's one author or set of authors in this case, you got to
00:23:31
pick up next. Its Andrews and Wilson.
00:23:34
So for my free space to round out the Perfect Score Card 5 out
00:23:39
of 5. It's going to you to Brian
00:23:42
Andrews. Jeff Wilson, thank you for doing
00:23:46
what you do the amount of hours. You must put into getting these
00:23:50
books published Is so worth it because you're creating
00:23:55
something for fans that gives us a little bit of an escape but
00:23:59
ultimately teaches us about real life and gives us characters
00:24:04
that we can all find a little bit of ourselves in even those
00:24:09
like me furthest from the thing of military and operations, I
00:24:13
could still find bits and pieces of these characters in my life
00:24:16
and the people around me. So thank you for doing what you
00:24:20
do a 50 out of 50. Folks, let me turn it over to
00:24:26
the men of the hour Brian Andrews.
00:24:28
Jeff Wilson, enjoy our brief but really really incredible chat
00:24:32
about sons of Valor to violence of action sons of a lure.
00:24:39
To I wasn't expecting to pick it up, had inaudible credit and I
00:24:44
was like, man, I love chunk and I loved heels, let me go back to
00:24:47
that universe. And holy cow.
00:24:52
This one was incredible. I'm like, and it's been a while
00:25:00
I kind of once. I forgot the first one, but some
00:25:03
of the the intricacies in the details that I didn't recall and
00:25:06
they it almost came flooding back to me.
00:25:08
One thing I keep coming back to is the car ride going to the
00:25:12
wedding with the Drone strike. And I guess I'm going to put
00:25:16
spoiler, warning, all over this section.
00:25:18
I'm going to cover It in. I'll also put one in the very
00:25:21
beginning that with Darkfall if you totally want to go into it
00:25:25
unaware. Don't listen till you're done.
00:25:27
Yes I'll put up a little intro in the front for this but sons
00:25:31
of Valor two Major Spoilers, the fact that we're going back to
00:25:35
that car ride crossing the border.
00:25:38
The analysts are looking at little details of, there's
00:25:41
somebody's leg in them in the picture.
00:25:44
Like, that's got to be real stuff, right?
00:25:45
That's how our analysts are tracking people and looking at
00:25:48
the small things and In what they've got.
00:25:52
Yeah, so sons of Allard to is Just more of Sons of Valor one.
00:26:01
It's just take sons of our one and all the fun little details
00:26:05
and then you know do use the old spinal tap thing.
00:26:08
You know we just turn it up to 11.
00:26:09
You know this one goes to 11 it doesn't and you know it's our
00:26:13
highest rated book on Audible. It has several thousand reviews
00:26:17
of 4.9. You know, we're just blown away
00:26:21
with the fan reactions to this book and in fact Ray Porter,
00:26:25
even message us and said guys he's read So many of our books
00:26:28
he said guys this one it might be beyond my favorite books I've
00:26:32
ever performed and so that was a huge compliment coming from, you
00:26:36
know, I'm not going to disagree. I I was blown away, it's one of
00:26:41
my favorite Thrillers of all time and I think the best book
00:26:44
that I've read by you guys. It's that, that's why I wanted
00:26:47
to bring it up. I know with am and I didn't
00:26:49
mention, we wanted to talk sons of Valor was going to be purely
00:26:52
the shepherd series, but I had to bring it up while I had you
00:26:55
and our listeners who have read it.
00:26:57
I really want to A little bit more about your success with
00:27:00
this one. Well yeah, what questions you
00:27:02
have about the book. So the Suburban sniper on sniper
00:27:07
shoot out I recently a jack car book, had a sniper on sniper.
00:27:12
We read a brat we were doing a breath or book which had a
00:27:14
sniper on sniper kind of battle and none of them.
00:27:17
Have I think haunted me so much. It's like I'm not going to be
00:27:21
hiking in the woods and some you know, Chechen sniper is not
00:27:24
going to be waiting for me or you know, like, I'm not chances
00:27:28
are Low. Then I'm going to be a big city
00:27:29
during a terrorist attack, but this one was like a Suburban
00:27:31
neighborhood. You know, where I and probably a
00:27:33
lot of readers have grown up, or have familiarity with it.
00:27:37
Just seems so real hiding on rooftops behind chimneys and
00:27:40
Eve's and being able to shoot through walls with thermal
00:27:44
imaging. And aren't you guys scare people
00:27:47
with that kind of stuff, just very worldly and it's Jeff.
00:27:53
Remember our denominator on Sons of our three because we just we
00:27:56
just finished that book. He's like now You know, can we
00:27:59
do something like what you did at the end of the Sun as well or
00:28:02
two? Yeah.
00:28:05
And that was that three top, right?
00:28:06
Brian. Because that's you can't do that
00:28:10
in every book. Like the, you know, again that
00:28:13
went to give too much away but the stakes in that in that
00:28:16
climax. Yeah, are highly personal and
00:28:20
that was what resonated with Andy.
00:28:23
We have a developmental editor. Blackstone, we just love with
00:28:27
name's Andy and he's Fantastic and insightful but he loved book
00:28:31
too and he was like, you know, can you make it real personal?
00:28:33
It's like, look at some point. That's really fake.
00:28:35
Like maybe that happens once in your career, it doesn't happen
00:28:39
every operation on that you have personal Stakes at some point.
00:28:43
It's just, it's your job to protect the nation and, but
00:28:46
yeah, he resonated with him as well.
00:28:49
And then, of course, the flip side of that is, you got another
00:28:51
book, and if the book to is that well-received, you got, you
00:28:56
gotta come up with something. That they're not like, oh well
00:28:59
that's not as good as fuck. So and I think we've done that,
00:29:04
we just finished that book up. It's coming out next June.
00:29:08
Okay, and it's got some very different stuff in it.
00:29:12
But yeah, that was really really, really fun.
00:29:15
And I think what would be fun in book 3 for the people that
00:29:18
enjoyed that is the ripple effect.
00:29:21
You know we never really enjoy whether it's film television or
00:29:26
books that horrible. Nothing happens to a character
00:29:30
in the next Tuesday. You watch it?
00:29:32
He's just like business as usual.
00:29:34
Yeah, we'd like to kind of have our characters and relationships
00:29:38
between our characters, impacted by these things.
00:29:41
And so that was one fun thing in writing book. 3 was to unpack.
00:29:45
What? That toll was on the team on the
00:29:48
relationships in the unit, but also on individuals like saw in
00:29:52
that in that sequence. You don't walk away from
00:29:54
something like that, unscathed, emotionally and psychologically.
00:29:58
So what would that look like? And how would that affect his
00:30:00
role in the team Etc. And so we get to get into some
00:30:03
of those issues in book in book 3, even the Nuggets.
00:30:07
You dropped about that the way chunk, kindness ideal leader.
00:30:13
Understands that, you know, I might have to let guys go might
00:30:16
have to support them and what's best for them especially after
00:30:19
something like this. It's again you're creating Role
00:30:21
Models so that we're not looking up to the Elon Musk in the
00:30:25
whoever the world. You know, as much.
00:30:26
We could look up the your characters and learn so much.
00:30:30
Now the opposite is true, though the book is also Haunting in
00:30:34
that you took who I thought was after book one.
00:30:38
Perhaps the most one of the most sympathetic villains in a, in a
00:30:42
thriller, someone who his relationship with his wife,
00:30:46
which was not even a wife of love, but of circumstance or
00:30:49
necessity, and he actually falls for her and they seem to be
00:30:52
falling for each other and they're like fish out of water
00:30:55
living, you know, in a western world even though, you know,
00:30:59
they had a very traditional upbringing.
00:31:03
And now I absolutely hate him and like you made me yell at a
00:31:07
character and just yell, no, no, don't do that.
00:31:11
Don't go down that path and yet. So clearly, he unravels and fuck
00:31:16
he goes down that path experience, I love that
00:31:20
reaction, I love that you're feeling that we might, because
00:31:22
that takes, that's hard as a writer.
00:31:26
That mean that means we're doing our crafts are doing our job.
00:31:30
If we can really jerk your oceans like that, and make you
00:31:34
feel like Man, why does he doing that?
00:31:38
You know, don't do that. If we can get you to yell that
00:31:41
out. You did her job.
00:31:42
Yeah. And we've and in this character
00:31:44
particularly because you keyed into something that was a highly
00:31:48
intentional and very crap Centric in in that series of
00:31:52
books was, you know, it's a risk to develop a sympathetic
00:31:57
antagonist and we talked for hours about that risk that we
00:32:03
were willing to take, but how to mitigate it, and how we needed
00:32:06
it to. Unfold and you can't just have a
00:32:08
sympathetic guy and then flip a switch and he's a dipshit and
00:32:11
then so that you can hate him and we can kill him.
00:32:13
Like it's got to be organic and that was as Brian alluded to.
00:32:18
That was a lot of work and writing and conversation and
00:32:23
rewriting and pulling little subtext through so that we can
00:32:27
take him on a villains Journey, right?
00:32:30
They will get him to a satisfying place.
00:32:33
If by the end of book 2 you still feel like man that poor
00:32:36
guy. Well, that's going to be a
00:32:37
problem that's gonna be a problem in book. 3, we don't
00:32:41
want you to start the hate chunk, right?
00:32:43
Because of what he's doing with this bad guy.
00:32:46
So it was a it was really fun. I think we were able to to push
00:32:51
ourselves to a new level of character development.
00:32:55
But especially antagonist development, which is something
00:32:58
we take great pride in making those characters flushing them
00:33:01
out. Making them real and having
00:33:02
their own, their own arcs and stories but we had to do it in a
00:33:05
whole different Aunt level with Kassim the dark, there's no
00:33:09
question about it. And yet, you know, I don't even
00:33:12
know we've done it, we didn't sense about you, but I don't
00:33:15
think we've ever done it before. Which is there's a whole chapter
00:33:18
devoted to kasim, just getting Mentor by hums, mm, you know.
00:33:23
And that was pretty fun too. I went back and listened to Sons
00:33:26
of Valor to. First of all, I think it's our
00:33:29
funniest book because I found myself laughing at jokes.
00:33:31
We had written that I didn't remember.
00:33:33
But you know that that chapter were Hans is sort of mentoring
00:33:38
kasim. That was pretty powerful, you
00:33:41
know, because because seems not sure, and, and he re afraid he
00:33:47
constantly gets reaffirmed, right?
00:33:48
He's always reaffirming. And then by the time you get to
00:33:52
the end, like he said, okay, he's he's comfortable with this
00:33:56
decision but I think that's how is in real life.
00:33:59
I don't think anybody there are, there are a handful of
00:34:02
sociopaths that come out of the womb and they're just villains.
00:34:06
It's from from birth. But I think most people are not
00:34:10
that way, you know, it's a process to become comfortable
00:34:14
with violence and conducting violence and, and taking
00:34:17
advantage and hurting people, you know, that's a process, and
00:34:20
I think that's what we're seeing.
00:34:21
Yeah, you can't just have the bald guy struck in the cat,
00:34:25
right? Like, that's right.
00:34:26
That's fun. In a James Bond, old, James Bond
00:34:28
movie. But it's a little Trophy.
00:34:30
And, and not as enjoyable. And I think we've done it
00:34:33
before, we've done it. I think if you look at the You
00:34:37
know what we did in the Tier 1 books in the sort of what we,
00:34:42
it's not formally called as we refer to it as the Persian
00:34:45
Trilogy, with rainbow. Yeah.
00:34:47
Right. Yeah.
00:34:47
A little bit with we, for sure developed it but it was in
00:34:51
retrospect, right? Like yeah, you met and when they
00:34:54
were already who they were, but we tried to through the
00:34:58
relationship between him and his wife flesh out and the loss of
00:35:02
his son and the attack, right? Try to flush out some of his
00:35:05
motivation. Ins and retrospect in
00:35:08
retrospect, what made him the good guy in his story, right?
00:35:13
Which is not hard to do with an ant tag?
00:35:14
That was the playground. Yeah, exactly.
00:35:16
Yeah. But here, we did it in a very
00:35:20
prospective way, starting his journey from the beginning of
00:35:23
the book instead of looking back through that lens and it was
00:35:26
really hard and really fun and I think we grew as writers doing
00:35:32
it. I think so too.
00:35:33
I think what made it genuine was.
00:35:35
Well, that's the nature of Radicalization as you're
00:35:38
describing. Are, you know, that's how
00:35:40
extremists are. They're not, they're not born
00:35:43
extremists there there. Groomed if you will, to become
00:35:46
that and hamza's doing that par excellence, and at the same
00:35:50
time, it could be rushed and I think that's when maeby it.
00:35:53
Either feels cheap and or feels too fast or it's just a 180 that
00:35:58
the reader doesn't buy into. But yeah, the fact that you
00:36:01
carried him as the main antagonist over to bucks and In
00:36:07
the first when you're kind of sympathetic and then the second
00:36:09
one, the rug pulled out from under your feet.
00:36:11
You're not doing that in 100 Pages.
00:36:13
You're doing that in 600 pages and I think you took the time
00:36:16
with it, you know you baked it, you put it in the slow cooker
00:36:18
and the and those flavors those juices developed and, you know,
00:36:22
it's sort of the difference between a reader and I'm
00:36:25
speaking as a reader as well. As a writer here there are times
00:36:29
when you hate the character because you know, the writer
00:36:32
needs you to like it's the difference between building a
00:36:35
bad guy. Because he needs to be a bad guy
00:36:38
and really having him go on a journey and they both work.
00:36:44
But for that, for that this book, these series of books,
00:36:48
that's a lot more fun ride. I think especially if I have
00:36:51
multiple books to do it and you can't do that in a single book,
00:36:54
you know? So if your if your formula is
00:36:57
good, guys meet bad guy by the end of bad guys dead.
00:37:00
They move on to the next thing in the next book.
00:37:02
It's almost impossible to do. I would argue.
00:37:04
Yeah, but if you can take a few books and really Ali grow those
00:37:07
things, it's worth it's worth the work because it's in, we
00:37:12
have to ask, you know, you're asking you readers to be
00:37:14
patient, you know. It's like you think about like
00:37:18
the Lord of the Rings trilogy, The Peter Jackson.
00:37:21
Lawrence Trilogy, is like, you know, why is it that we spend,
00:37:26
you know, half of the first movie just with Frodo and the
00:37:30
rest of the hobbits, you're seeing their Village Life, their
00:37:34
jackassery, they're simple. Like, you know, you're asking
00:37:38
the reader to be patient, so that you start to appreciate,
00:37:41
you know, their relationships and I'd say that the problem is,
00:37:45
with the modern reader in the modern television, viewer is a
00:37:48
lot of times. They just want you to go get me,
00:37:50
the action, get me the action, and then, you know, in the, in
00:37:55
an effort to try to satisfy that and not have people put the book
00:38:01
away because their border turn off the show it forces us as
00:38:05
storytellers to Sometimes not give you the material that you
00:38:10
need to actually care about them because when you do rush it and
00:38:14
you get to the end like you said like it's like you get to end
00:38:16
you're like well that was cool but like actually never really
00:38:19
cared about anything. Sure.
00:38:22
Yeah. So we do ask our readers to be a
00:38:25
little patient. You know.
00:38:26
Yeah. And you know just to follow that
00:38:28
up Chris and I have been I don't want it, maybe lamenting is the
00:38:32
word The Thrillers were reading in covering now and we Mostly
00:38:37
stick to the Mitch rap and Scott Horvath series.
00:38:40
They're getting shorter. And the newest releases have
00:38:43
been the shortest in the entire 20 plus book series.
00:38:48
And we can understand and I talked to Ryan Steck about this
00:38:51
to who's, you know, the industry expert.
00:38:54
Books are getting shorter Publishers.
00:38:55
Want you know, or believe there's a shorter attention span
00:38:58
and younger Generations. They want to rope in but we've
00:39:02
almost been saddened that there's complexity and depth and
00:39:06
that slow cooking lost and it's a genre Trend that on this
00:39:10
podcast we've spotted in recent releases we haven't been too
00:39:14
happy about all the books are quicker.
00:39:16
You can get through them faster, you can put them down and post
00:39:18
about them and say oh great book, this was cool.
00:39:20
This was fun. They don't have the depth of
00:39:22
your consent to kill you. No, the height of Vince Flynn,
00:39:25
you know, lines of Lucerne early, Brad Thor.
00:39:28
Who was writing a 700-page novel, and we don't want that
00:39:31
either, but we just don't want to lose the complexity and you
00:39:33
guys have done that and packed it into your books are
00:39:36
manageable. Usually what in the 300s, I know
00:39:39
you guys go by words. A reader goes away cages but 392
00:39:43
415 something like that, that's very rare.
00:39:45
The last Scott Horvath books, the breath or books, the last
00:39:49
much wrap books, they've been a lot shorter significantly
00:39:52
shorter than that and I think as readers, we don't want to just
00:39:56
rip through books. We want to really enjoy them and
00:39:58
go on the journey that you're taking us and what you said
00:40:01
before. Jeff, I think the Arc of the
00:40:03
villain is now a new segment on this podcast, we're going to
00:40:06
start looking for that has seemed gave us a perfect Arc for
00:40:11
a villain and it's not even done yet so we're going to start look
00:40:13
for villain arcs now because we're always looking for the
00:40:15
protagonist Arc and the main characters Arc.
00:40:17
But a villain Arc is what really can maybe set a book above to
00:40:21
that next level? Yeah.
00:40:22
Well, for whoever's You're listening to the podcast.
00:40:25
Just know we didn't get the memo about it.
00:40:29
Shortening, the books and making them they get them quick and
00:40:31
less depth. So whatever you've enjoyed on
00:40:34
ours there it's going to continue because so far the
00:40:37
Publishers haven't said any directors for order they and
00:40:40
they seem to enjoy, we are blessed to be with Incredible
00:40:44
editors, incredible Publishers at Blackstone at Tyndale house,
00:40:48
working with Tom Colgan. At penguin we got another
00:40:50
project with him in the near future, so we I've been really
00:40:54
lucky to have people that are invested in quality
00:40:57
storytelling, not just getting a book out on a shelf so that they
00:41:00
can so that they can catch the check.
00:41:02
So that's part of that to us but a lot of it is just wear with
00:41:06
the right people. That's wonderful.
00:41:08
Well, thank you guys for spending the time to talk
00:41:11
Darkfall in the shepherd series, sons of Valor to two of the best
00:41:15
books. I've read this year and in
00:41:17
months. So thanks for putting them out
00:41:19
there and everybody pick up your copy of Darkfall and if you
00:41:23
listen this long, you have probably read both because he
00:41:26
got some spoilers by now. And like I said, I'll be sure to
00:41:28
go back and edit in spoiler warning.
00:41:30
So the folks are prepared at what they're going to get with
00:41:32
this hour of content we put together.
00:41:35
So thanks for spending the time with me.
00:41:37
Really appreciate you. Guys, keep doing what you do.
00:41:39
We always enjoy, thanks for having us.
00:41:40
Great interview. and of course if you like what you're hearing
00:41:48
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00:43:02
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