The adventures of Ben and Eliza! Chris and Mike are joined by the creator and host of The Terminal Vengeance YouTube channel to break down episodes 4 and 5 of The Terminal List: Dark Wolf on Amazon Prime Video. SPOILER WARNING: We are the thriller deep-dive after show!
The conversation delves into the pacing of action scenes, thematic elements of war and morality, and the mystery surrounding the plot. They also touch on cameos, Easter eggs, and predictions for the future of the series.
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CHAPTERS
04:52 Building a Community Around Books and Shows
08:02 Connecting Dark Wolf to True Believer
12:20 Anticipating Future Episodes and Guest Appearances
20:03 Character Development and Story Arcs
25:02 The Fog of War and Moral Ambiguity
27:33 Character Development and Storytelling
28:56 The Role of Writers in Shaping the Narrative
30:46 Cameos and Easter Eggs
32:20 Action Sequences: Expectations vs. Reality
35:30 Character Philosophies and Moral Dilemmas
39:16 Predictions and Future Episodes
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KEYWORDS:
Dark Wolf, Terminalist, Jack Carr, TV shows, book adaptations, character development, action scenes, community building, spoilers, military thrillers
#NoLimitsPodcast #ThrillerPodcast #ThrillerPod #SpyThrillers
00:00:17
Hey, guys, I'm Chris. And I'm Mike.
00:00:21
And welcome back to this week's and no limits, the Dark Wolf
00:00:25
after show how you doing today, Mike?
00:00:29
I'm good and I am very happy to introduce a special guest.
00:00:33
We are joined by TV, the creator behind the Terminal Vengeance
00:00:39
YouTube channel, Friend of the pod for a number of years now.
00:00:43
Welcome TV, you got to tell us all about your channel.
00:00:46
Thank you all for having me. Yeah.
00:00:48
So I started my channel a few years ago.
00:00:51
I basically make what I wanted to watch on YouTube.
00:00:54
I wanted to see people talking about the show and nobody really
00:00:58
was. So I started and I do like
00:01:01
Easter egg breakdowns, find the hidden details and like the
00:01:05
callbacks to the book and then make a video on it and I guess
00:01:10
people like it. Yeah, that's that's kind of why
00:01:14
we want to be the after show. We want to do those spoilers as
00:01:17
well. We want to dig in deep, find the
00:01:18
Nuggets, make it accessible for anybody who just watches the
00:01:22
shows, the first Terminal of season or now Dark Wolf so that
00:01:25
they have an after show to go to.
00:01:27
But we also want to bring people to the books.
00:01:29
That's our ultimate mission. We're book readers through and
00:01:31
through. I I mean, you and I connected
00:01:33
first a few years back over the books, the terminal list and I
00:01:37
think Red sky morning was coming out at the time and and so that
00:01:40
that has to be the mission of both the show itself and all the
00:01:43
commentary about the show. Let's get people to the books
00:01:46
because that's where James Reese is really James Reese.
00:01:48
I think on page is the James Reese I know and love.
00:01:51
The TV shows are fun, but we got to get people reading the books.
00:01:54
They're just incredible. Oh yeah, for sure.
00:01:57
I think it's easier to get people to watch a show, but it's
00:02:01
harder to get people into books. But when they get into them,
00:02:04
they're just hooked. So it just makes my day whenever
00:02:07
someone says I decided to buy the book and I'm loving it.
00:02:10
Yeah, no, it's it's great now I love your I love your
00:02:13
breakdowns. Like it, you know it.
00:02:15
It's interesting because I want this community to be like, you
00:02:22
know, I don't know, I, I look at some of the other things that I
00:02:25
want or I watch from, you know, like nerd verse, right?
00:02:31
You know, whether it's Marvel or X-Men, you know, like any of
00:02:37
these like IP machines. You know, you have a bunch of
00:02:40
podcasts out there, you have new rock stars, you have like the
00:02:42
ringer verse. You have a bunch of them yet
00:02:46
like they're they're and I don't, I feel like we're these
00:02:49
books aren't like that super niche.
00:02:51
Like they're literally New York time bestsellers.
00:02:53
Like every year. Like, you know, you walk through
00:02:55
any airport, you walk through any bookstore, you're going to
00:02:57
see it there and it's, it's pushed, but yet like the this
00:03:00
kind of community doesn't quite exist.
00:03:03
And so, you know, definitely, obviously love having you on and
00:03:06
want to elevate your stuff. I want more and more people to,
00:03:10
to like and subscribe and, and, and engage in this community
00:03:13
because the more people we get watching us or, you know,
00:03:16
watching you, listening to you, listening to us, I feel like it
00:03:19
just would breed other creators. You know, it just builds upon
00:03:23
this community that we would like to see happen.
00:03:28
Yeah. And I think age demographic as
00:03:31
well might be a difference. Some of those IPS you mentioned
00:03:34
and those channels like New Rockstar, Screen Rant, all the
00:03:36
others. I do wonder if older
00:03:39
demographics, I'm talking, you know, 50 plus would necessarily
00:03:43
be going to that media and content.
00:03:45
And I feel like they're not. But, you know, TV, your channel
00:03:49
speaks to a younger demographic. You yourself are, you know, on
00:03:53
the younger side, still in school.
00:03:55
So I feel like that, well, you need new media to do that,
00:03:57
right? You need the social media, you
00:03:59
need the podcast. And I think there's a big
00:04:02
opportunity. I don't know if it's years away
00:04:04
from channels like ours and yours popping off.
00:04:07
Yours has already grown massively looking at your stats.
00:04:10
So keep it coming. We want more of that.
00:04:12
What is it? A rising tide lifts all boats.
00:04:14
It's this space is definitely not crowded out like some
00:04:17
YouTube genres, you know, cooking, food, golf.
00:04:21
I feel like those things are so over saturated.
00:04:23
I think book YouTube is not there yet.
00:04:26
I think we're just on the precipice.
00:04:29
Yeah, for sure. You very rarely get to be the
00:04:32
first or the only, but sometimes, since nobody else is
00:04:36
talking about it, I am the first or I am the only person.
00:04:39
And I y'all too, like I've been listening to y'all talking about
00:04:42
Dark Wolf and it's been great to have someone else.
00:04:46
It's like when you see something, if you don't have any
00:04:49
friends that watch it, you want to talk to someone about it.
00:04:52
And that's kind of what the podcast is like.
00:04:55
Yeah, I mean, Mike, I don't know if you cut ended up cutting it
00:04:58
out of the episode or not, but like we went on this rant about
00:05:02
the lack of cultural zeitgeist that exists in in the world and
00:05:06
how I'm enjoying that. You know, Amazon Prime put out
00:05:11
like the first 3 episodes and is putting out these episodes one
00:05:14
per week because one gives me something to look forward to.
00:05:17
I'm a busy dad. I don't have time to binge, you
00:05:20
know, shows like I used to back in in high score college, but
00:05:24
also like, you know, it builds some suspense for it.
00:05:26
And like, I'll I'll be texting Mike or I'll I'll text in our,
00:05:31
you know, GroupMe chat. Like, Hey, like, what did you
00:05:33
think about this? What do you think about that?
00:05:34
You know, I feel like we've gotten farther and farther away
00:05:37
from that as a society back to, I don't know, like when one was
00:05:40
a lot. I guess Game of Thrones was
00:05:41
really the last one that that was kind of like that, you know,
00:05:44
breaking. I remember, I remember when the
00:05:46
Breaking Bad season finale came out.
00:05:48
This is dating me and like, you know, going to work right after
00:05:52
that and everyone was talking about it or, you know, like when
00:05:55
everyone hated the season 8 of of Game of Thrones, like
00:05:58
everyone was talking about that. So I don't know.
00:06:00
But I like, I know there are people that are engaging in this
00:06:03
in this season, Dark Wolf, people at work, you know, have
00:06:07
randomly brought it up and they're liking it so.
00:06:10
I think the marketing end on the production team side is way
00:06:14
better than the terminalist season 1.
00:06:17
For some reason, it's more findable on Amazon is more
00:06:20
billboards and things you know you're seeing posted in airports
00:06:23
and bus stops in major metropolitan areas.
00:06:25
So I feel like things are clicking now that weren't
00:06:29
necessarily there on the first run of the TV show.
00:06:32
And I think that's resonating with all these new media groups
00:06:35
because even, I think it was Screen Rant did some interviews
00:06:38
with all the actors. And however that publicity
00:06:40
machine gets rolling, I'm seeing Taylor Kitsch, Tom Hooper,
00:06:45
they're out on tour, right? They're they're doing tons of
00:06:47
content, tons of interview with big name media outlets.
00:06:50
And I don't recall that happening to this level.
00:06:52
Maybe it's also Chris Pratt's production team.
00:06:54
I know he has a big role in the show.
00:06:57
I, I just think they have a bigger platform with Dark Wolf
00:06:59
than they did the terminal list. And I'm kind of glad about that
00:07:03
one. I, I think it's just an overall
00:07:05
better show. I think it's more likely to
00:07:08
drive people to the books as well.
00:07:10
Even though James Reese was barely a figment of our
00:07:13
imagination episode 1 and poof gone like one and two and wasn't
00:07:17
even in real two really just a little in the beginning.
00:07:19
So I, I feel like I'm OK if people start with Dark Wolf, get
00:07:24
a little taste, either watch the show or read a book and they are
00:07:28
absolutely coming back to true believer.
00:07:30
And we didn't even say it. We are spoiling episodes 4:00
00:07:33
and 5:00 today. We already covered Chris and
00:07:35
I-12 and three. So TV, you're with us to talk
00:07:38
about four and five. These episodes are a massive
00:07:41
setup for True Believer. Like they're doubling down,
00:07:45
particularly in five with some things we get about Wraith
00:07:48
during the torture scene. Do you guys feel it?
00:07:50
Almost Dark Wolf is subtly and you wouldn't see it unless you
00:07:54
were a book reader, is subtly also teeing up True Believer to
00:07:57
come next year or 27 or whenever we get it.
00:08:02
Yeah, definitely. There's so many things that that
00:08:06
are like callbacks to the book. But like you're saying, if you
00:08:10
never read the book, it's not like in your face and you're not
00:08:13
getting lost when these these details are thrown in.
00:08:18
Yeah, I think it's, you know, we I don't know if we were talking
00:08:22
about this last time or, or offline.
00:08:25
While we love True believer as a book, I I felt like it would
00:08:29
have been hard, a hard jump to go from the terminalist to that
00:08:34
one, just like the way the book set up with, you know, the whole
00:08:38
beginning, being on a boat and traveling to Africa and all that
00:08:40
stuff. But then a lot of it is call
00:08:42
back. And so, you know, him thinking
00:08:44
about like the past or reminiscing about something.
00:08:47
And so instead of having that, you know, 1 putting it in this
00:08:53
origin story, in this medium here, obviously, you know, we
00:08:58
only got the the Cavs a big star in Taylor Kitsch for Ben
00:09:02
Edwards, and you want to get your money's worth out of that.
00:09:05
And I I would say he's doing very good in this episode.
00:09:08
And you're, you are seeing his progression, you know, teeing it
00:09:12
up to like, all right now. Now maybe I can understand more
00:09:15
of like how he, you know, and ends up switching in in in the
00:09:19
future in terminal list. So, yeah, I, I think, you know,
00:09:23
whoever sat down and was like, Hey, what do we do next?
00:09:26
I, I, I, I'm fully agreeing with like, all right, let's take a
00:09:29
step back. Let's do this prequel show, you
00:09:32
know, because we have what we have.
00:09:34
And I think it it's going to make Terminal List Season 2 true
00:09:38
believer that much better. Yeah, perfectly said.
00:09:43
Yeah, I, I can't agree more with that decision being the right
00:09:46
one as the direction to take the show.
00:09:49
And sometimes you do when books go back in time, think about
00:09:53
Mitch Rapp, right when Vince Flynn did American Assassin and
00:09:57
then that trilogy never wrapped up.
00:09:58
Then he jumped ahead and, you know, ultimately ended up with
00:10:01
The Last Man. I feel like some people were
00:10:03
lost. Some of the readers got a little
00:10:05
confused about the timeline and it opened up this whole where do
00:10:08
we begin? Do you begin with American
00:10:09
Assassin? Do you begin with term limits or
00:10:12
transfer power? I could see that happening with
00:10:15
The Terminalist. But I think over time, let's say
00:10:18
they make 6-7 whatever TV shows, dark Wolf's number one, like I,
00:10:22
I do think of dark Wolf as like the first season you watch.
00:10:25
So I feel like that's pretty clear and it's going to make
00:10:29
you're right, particularly the ending of terminalist book or TV
00:10:31
show much because one of the biggest criticisms at the end of
00:10:35
the TV show kind of in the book too, is what the hell happened
00:10:39
with Ben? Like what his seal mate, his
00:10:42
seal brother. That's a very big critique of
00:10:45
that book. I and I understand that.
00:10:47
And then Jack was smart enough to realize that.
00:10:50
So he carries it over, not too many spoilers into True believer
00:10:54
Savage Son and maybe even beyond where Katie is asking how did
00:10:58
you know Ben wouldn't kill me? How did you know I'd survive the
00:11:00
attack? And so that storyline of like,
00:11:03
why did this happen? And this was a strange sequence
00:11:06
of occurrence that came out of the blue.
00:11:08
Like I don't know if the twist completely lands.
00:11:10
Well, that had to be unpacked under a couple of books after.
00:11:13
Like that was a lingering storyline, Reese and Katie's
00:11:16
relationship after the whole events of Ben and the debt cord
00:11:19
and etcetera. And I feel like Dark Wolf is
00:11:22
giving the space to answer that or preview that kind of get
00:11:26
ahead of it. So it doesn't seem as such an
00:11:28
out of the blue strange occurrence when you get to the
00:11:30
end of terminalist, although on TV show.
00:11:35
Speaking of Katie, and I don't want to bring it up too much
00:11:37
because there's a dark wolf podcast.
00:11:39
I don't know how they're going to sell the audience that Katie
00:11:41
and Reese are a thing or a couple.
00:11:44
So I I I've yet to see what they're going to do with that
00:11:46
and true believer. But I'm I'm putting the cart
00:11:48
before the horse there. We got a lot of story to tell
00:11:50
before that. Yeah, they are filming True
00:11:55
Believer because we will have Jack Carr coming on the podcast
00:11:59
and I've got to wake up at 4:30 AM for that because he is abroad
00:12:03
internationally filming True Believer and getting that show
00:12:07
on the road. So things to look forward to for
00:12:10
the No Limits faithful out there.
00:12:11
And TV, the Terminal Vengeance channel will also have a little
00:12:15
Jack car preview. Are we allowed to say that?
00:12:17
Yeah, I was able to talk to him a few days ago and we had a
00:12:21
great conversation. It'll probably be a two-part
00:12:25
release because I asked him some questions about the finale, but
00:12:30
I'm excited to get it out there. And you guys also talk cry
00:12:34
havoc. We did, yeah.
00:12:36
I really enjoyed Cry Havoc and I asked him some like general
00:12:42
questions. So nothing spoiled for people
00:12:44
who haven't read it. And yeah, you can tell how
00:12:49
passionate he is about Tom Reece and his story.
00:12:53
And like, I asked him, like, why this was the time to jump from
00:12:58
James Reece to Tom Reece. And we had a great conversation.
00:13:04
So the little there's a little of a side, but how did you get
00:13:08
into these books? Well, I was.
00:13:13
I guess I was just listening to a lot of audio books and I'd go
00:13:17
from subject to subject and I landed on the military and I I
00:13:23
hit like aviation and then I went into special operations and
00:13:28
found Jack Cars books because it was in that section.
00:13:32
And I just started listening to them and immediately binge the
00:13:36
first three and then I was hooked.
00:13:38
Nice. So have you ventured out into
00:13:43
like other thriller reverse authors?
00:13:47
Yeah, I've started Brad Thore and Vince Flynn and then a few
00:13:53
others out there, but mainly those.
00:13:58
And so you're, you're mainly an audiobook guy.
00:14:01
I started out in audiobooks, but I think I like physical copies.
00:14:06
Now, OK, you know, Chris and I were wondering, and I thought I
00:14:10
heard it again. There was a little phone call
00:14:13
with Tom, not Tom Reese, with Jonathan Hastings on the phone.
00:14:19
And we were both wondering if either Ray Porter was that
00:14:22
voice. I didn't go back and listen to
00:14:24
it. There's another phone call here
00:14:25
where I'm like, Oh my God, it sounds like Ray Porter too.
00:14:28
So I don't know if they actually used him in The Dark Wolf, but
00:14:31
there's some references that totally make me think of Ray
00:14:34
Porter's performance in the books.
00:14:35
Anytime we hear a Hastings, Tom Hooper or one of these phone
00:14:38
calls, I'm just like, man, that's taking me back to hearing
00:14:41
the audio book with these Rhodesian accents and
00:14:44
everything. They're getting all those parts
00:14:45
right. Yeah, he just, the way he reads
00:14:48
it is so good that when I go back and read like the
00:14:52
Terminalist, I can hear his voice like I'm reading in his
00:14:56
voice. And I did check IMDb, it is Ray
00:15:01
Porter, which is really neat. All right.
00:15:04
Oh wow. Nice.
00:15:05
Chris, I think, I think you called that one on the last
00:15:07
episode. You also made another major
00:15:10
call. Maybe it's time to get into the
00:15:11
spoilers of Episode 4. Eliza.
00:15:16
Chris, you said on our episode 3 coverage you don't trust her.
00:15:21
You think she might be a rat and and then episode 4 ends with the
00:15:24
shots in the back. What did you think when that
00:15:26
happened? I, I, I 100% saw it coming.
00:15:29
You know, you know, I feel like putting Mossad in bed with the
00:15:34
CIA. You know, we've, we've read too
00:15:36
many of these stories to know that it's, it's, you know, going
00:15:40
to go bad in, in some fashion where Israel always Trump's most
00:15:46
of the time, you know, what's going to go on.
00:15:48
But you know, I've, I feel like they were setting this up.
00:15:51
I'm super intrigued to see, you know, I, I know we're covering
00:15:55
4:00 and 5:00. So obviously setting up that,
00:15:59
you know, sort of turn there and then immediately, you know,
00:16:01
confronting it. This this show waste no time.
00:16:04
Like, you know, I I almost feel like this show could have been
00:16:06
longer. Like do you guys feel that like
00:16:09
they could have? Completely.
00:16:10
Made it and not that I think it's bad, it's not like, you
00:16:14
know, some other shows where they're jumping around too much
00:16:16
and you know it it, but I I do feel like it it could have
00:16:19
deserved, you know, a longer season just to draw some of
00:16:24
these other things. But that being said, you know,
00:16:27
we jump right back into it and then having the end of the last
00:16:31
episode end with her death like that was just crazy to me.
00:16:39
It's moving quick, and I at one point asked myself, is the show
00:16:43
a little too easy? They tease something up and then
00:16:47
the payoff is the next scene, the cutscene.
00:16:49
There's no drawing it out. And so to go from one episode
00:16:54
she turns on him to the second episode.
00:16:56
It's basically Episode 5, the Eliza and Ben show.
00:17:00
It hits them mending that relationship, being forced into
00:17:04
mending that relationship with a hostile hit.
00:17:06
We get two of these massive set action pieces and they both are
00:17:10
basically framed with Eliza and Ben's relationship in the
00:17:15
background. You know, they have to go scout
00:17:17
out the tunnel. The guard finds them, they start
00:17:20
making out. So it's like even on this
00:17:21
tunnel, OP, are things compromised because they're
00:17:24
getting too close? And Rafe even warns him and
00:17:26
confronts him about that in the let's be manly and chop wood
00:17:29
scene. With even that, I could have
00:17:32
taken a longer montage of they, they like chopped 2 pieces of
00:17:35
wood and it's cut like, no, I want to see these hunky dudes
00:17:39
cutting wood. You know, like, give me, give me
00:17:41
at least 2 minutes of that. But they jump from that too
00:17:45
quickly. And then Eliza's blown up next
00:17:47
episode right after they mend things.
00:17:49
And I think you're right, Chris, that's a consequence of seven
00:17:52
episodes. I wish this was 910.
00:17:55
I, I, I don't know how Amazon and the studios mandated that.
00:17:59
So I do think the writers room is doing the best they can with
00:18:02
those constraints. I understand a little timeline
00:18:05
compression, understand a little compression of dialogue to
00:18:09
advance storylines and relationships quicker than I
00:18:12
would like. And the one that is kind of
00:18:15
taking a backseat in episode 4 and five and and maybe why I'm a
00:18:19
little lower on them, Moe's just gone.
00:18:22
Like that impacted me not having MO after the shootout.
00:18:26
It, it seems like, well, not to say too much, but it seems like
00:18:30
it wasn't a mortal wound, like it was shot under the vest
00:18:34
somewhere in in the side in the oblique or something.
00:18:37
So it just seems like they're moving a little too quickly, but
00:18:40
then they're ignoring some storylines like that that I
00:18:42
loved. Maybe that's them trying to say
00:18:45
the team is split up. Like we haven't even seen
00:18:47
Haverford really after he took out the physicist.
00:18:51
So I guess this is trying to say the team's in shambles.
00:18:54
The team is spread out. This is the Ben and Eliza show.
00:18:56
Now. I really do help hope.
00:18:58
I know there's only two episodes left.
00:19:00
I do hope we get the MO Show and the Jed Haverford show because I
00:19:04
I want that equally as much as we've had screen time with Ben
00:19:07
and Eliza these two episodes. Yeah, I think part of that might
00:19:13
be the consequence of having a lot of major characters.
00:19:18
And I'm, I'm curious to see if people who haven't read True
00:19:24
Believer have the same critique on MO because we know he's a big
00:19:29
character, but other people aren't really going to know
00:19:32
that. Sure, we were so high on MO and
00:19:36
even Landry being tossed in here early because we know what's to
00:19:40
come with them. If I were an outsider, I think
00:19:42
looking at MO, I'd be fine with it by the look at Landry and be
00:19:45
like the Hell's going on with this guy, which again is is
00:19:49
teeing something up. But I don't know if I want to
00:19:51
say they're mishandled in their their storylines.
00:19:54
MO I don't think was in episodes 123, but I might say, yeah, it's
00:19:58
being mishandled now. And so I'm curious what 6 and
00:20:00
seven will do to bring the team back.
00:20:03
Does the team need to come back? But we need to see more of MO
00:20:06
and Jed and and those characters.
00:20:08
I really love that they put a lot of time and effort in too
00:20:11
early. Like we even get a tall show
00:20:13
here. Tall has her scene.
00:20:14
And I was really glad about that because I needed to see that
00:20:16
great, great combat scene, hand to hand action scene.
00:20:21
Someone commented under my review for Dark Wolf and they
00:20:25
said if there was a girl boss fight, then they were going to
00:20:28
be out of the show. And I knew that one was going,
00:20:31
but they did not. Yeah, they did not do the like
00:20:36
standard girl boss fight. It was like she was really
00:20:41
getting rocked and she was even like screaming for help and she
00:20:44
had to use like improvised weapons and stuff.
00:20:47
But that was a killer fight. Yeah, and I think it played up
00:20:53
it it was believable, you know, because we know that built from
00:20:56
like the well, I don't know, the first or second episode, you
00:20:58
know, when she struggled like pulling out that gun, like she
00:21:01
didn't just immediately get the shots off and and get it.
00:21:04
She had to struggle with it, you know, like you said, weapon
00:21:08
improvisation. And even to the fact that right
00:21:10
after she killed the dude, she had to throw up.
00:21:12
Like, you know, she it's emotional, it's raw, it's it's
00:21:18
true to her character. And I feel like they're doing a
00:21:21
really good job of, you know, 1 developing each of the
00:21:27
characters. But then, like you said, Mike
00:21:29
giving them their like moment. And I do need to see more of a
00:21:34
Haverford moment. I feel like we were kind of
00:21:38
peeling back the onion of him in.
00:21:41
I don't know if it was episode 4 with with Ray from the phone
00:21:43
call, but I want to see more of him.
00:21:47
And then I definitely want to talk to you guys about like the
00:21:50
rape scene, like in in in this whole interrogation and and then
00:21:55
ultimately finding out that, hey, this guy is actually
00:21:59
undercover. I was a little confused.
00:22:00
So we supposed to take it to mean that he was undercover or
00:22:05
that entire team was a German operative team?
00:22:08
I guess we don't. Do we not know?
00:22:10
That's the question. This colleague network was
00:22:13
somehow involved with the transfer of these bearings.
00:22:16
And I guess the question is, was German intelligence compromised
00:22:20
and actually someone in German intelligence, this guy's boss or
00:22:23
even this guy who's being tortured working alongside them?
00:22:26
This guy's trying to sell. No, we weren't.
00:22:28
Then are they like Mossad? Are they trying to undermine the
00:22:33
Iranian nuclear program? Did they put fake bearings in?
00:22:35
Because at one time Ben is manipulating the bearings in
00:22:39
that cinema museum rundown warehouse thing and and Eliza
00:22:43
sees him playing with the bearings and he says something's
00:22:45
not right about these. So is this a German intelligence
00:22:49
op? Is, is Germany undermining the
00:22:52
Iranian nuke deal? They actually want them to have
00:22:54
centrifuges. So they're trying to get them
00:22:56
the right bearings. I that's one of those mystery
00:22:58
boxes that I'm kind of happy with.
00:23:03
So, yeah, the torture scene with Rafe Jack car through and
00:23:07
through, right. If if James Reese isn't going to
00:23:09
be the one doing a torture scene, give it to Rafe Hastings.
00:23:12
Make him the bad ass mother fucker doing it.
00:23:14
So I was completely happy with that.
00:23:17
I don't know, I think the German thing is up for grabs and this
00:23:20
kind of parallels the shepherd. The Shepherd is compromising
00:23:25
submission and Mossad wants to figure it out.
00:23:27
That's why Eliza and Tal were actually tailing Jed, trying to
00:23:31
see, is he in on the game? Is the Shepherd playing him?
00:23:35
Is the Shepherd like this deep, deep covered double mole, secret
00:23:39
mole that ultimately is running Jed?
00:23:41
Is that what's going on here? And I think by looping in the
00:23:44
Germans and the Iranian nukes, we're seeing the consequences of
00:23:47
that. Whatever the Shepherd's able to
00:23:48
do is now having all these downstream effects of other
00:23:51
intelligence agencies having shootouts in European cities and
00:23:55
some terrorist network involved and bombs going off and car
00:23:58
bombs is a Mossad. Is it this colleague network?
00:24:03
Is it whoever is working with this German guy?
00:24:06
Is it Jed and the Shepherd? Like I think there's so many
00:24:08
mystery boxes that six and seven's got to land this plane.
00:24:11
We have to start getting answers to some of these things.
00:24:13
But I am bought into each of those storylines as its own
00:24:16
thread. Do you, would you agree?
00:24:19
TV on your channel? Have you talked about the
00:24:22
mystery box of it all and who's really the bad guy here?
00:24:27
I haven't gotten into the recent episodes, but one thing that I
00:24:32
liked about the torture scene and how that played out was I
00:24:38
think it really illustrates the fog of war well.
00:24:42
And even the bearings and the Khalid network, nobody really
00:24:48
knows what's going on. The audience doesn't know you're
00:24:51
right there with them. And I think even like episode 1
00:24:58
with Duron, there's some things that aren't black and white, and
00:25:02
I think Dark Wolf shows that and they go somewhere that most
00:25:07
shows probably wouldn't dare. Yeah, no, there there's, I think
00:25:13
look back to the scene of, you know, Ben Edwards just capping a
00:25:17
dude in the middle of a subway right after smiling at a little
00:25:20
girl. Like, you know, it's the show is
00:25:23
like I said, it's it's a little raw.
00:25:25
It's, you know, kind of showing you the trying to show you the
00:25:30
inner workings of, you know, CIA operatives, that kind of stuff.
00:25:35
I think look back to some other shows that have done this really
00:25:37
well. I think Homeland, the first
00:25:39
couple seasons, you know, slow horses.
00:25:43
I don't know if you guys have watched that show, but yeah,
00:25:47
like it's it's interesting to see.
00:25:51
I have no idea where I, you know, where this is going to go.
00:25:55
And I think that's ultimately a good thing.
00:25:58
I think it's like you said, Mike, I'm, I'm intrigued enough
00:26:01
and I'm not disappointed that like I'm, I'm pissed off like,
00:26:04
you know, other shows, like when you don't have enough intrigue
00:26:08
or there's too many loose ends with two episodes to go, you
00:26:14
know, you can kind of like check out or be like, I'm not buying
00:26:17
the show. But here I do think they have a
00:26:20
chance to quote UN quote and land the plane and wrap
00:26:23
everything up in the next two episodes.
00:26:25
And then hopefully, you know, sail us into a true believer.
00:26:29
So. Yeah, I'm, I'm a harsh critic on
00:26:32
both TV and books. So on the podcast I've had a lot
00:26:36
of hot takes. I will say I could very easily
00:26:40
be turned off by some of that and go, I don't really care who
00:26:43
the shepherd is. This is this is ridiculous.
00:26:45
No, I really care. Like I really want to know who's
00:26:49
running who. And they sold me so hard on Jed
00:26:52
being the good soldier, right? Being the the faithful one, his
00:26:56
whole life is in this decades of experience.
00:26:58
He was involved in Stuxnet, he was involved in other
00:27:03
operations, even mentioned Lebanon and Beirut and really
00:27:09
cool flashback. They even show footage from the
00:27:11
Beirut bombings. And knowing that was another one
00:27:13
of Jack Carr's books and one of his, you know, personal pet
00:27:16
projects with amazing book by the way, to actually bring that
00:27:20
into the show and have that with the character of Jed.
00:27:22
I was loving. I was eating it up.
00:27:24
I was lapping it out of their hands and now Mossad is trying
00:27:27
to convince us Jed is compromised.
00:27:30
Jed's been being played. I'm very much bought into that.
00:27:34
So I'd be the first one to critique these things if I
00:27:36
didn't think they were working, if I thought they were cheap
00:27:39
cuts or easy way out or they're taking shortcuts, cheap shots.
00:27:42
I not at all. I think they built this up
00:27:44
really well. I think the storytelling is
00:27:46
great, and maybe that's because they're unburdened by a book.
00:27:50
The Terminal is first season. Some of the best parts and
00:27:54
characters were people off book that the screenwriters just felt
00:27:57
free to do so and tell the story they need to tell, write
00:28:01
dialogue they need to write. And some of the scenes that
00:28:04
didn't land were ones where they tried too hard to be faithful to
00:28:07
the book but couldn't or didn't and it got sloppy.
00:28:11
I feel like the show really has the freedom to let the writers
00:28:14
do what they need to do and tell the story they need to tell and
00:28:16
it's and it's mostly working. Yeah, I think they have.
00:28:21
I think this is what happens when you have like 10 master
00:28:26
storytellers together instead of 1 and they get it.
00:28:29
Create something and everybody gets to put their input in and
00:28:34
the best idea wins instead of I mean the books are really good,
00:28:39
but when you have a bunch of people to bounce ideas off of, I
00:28:43
think you really get the best product you can.
00:28:48
And I'm just looking at like the writers of each individual show,
00:28:52
you know, or each individual episode.
00:28:54
So we have episode 1 was story by Jack Carr and Dave Djilio,
00:29:00
who producer on the show. Then we have two episodes by
00:29:06
Matt Mac Adams, episodes two and three.
00:29:09
And that you can kind of see like, you know, thinking back to
00:29:11
those two, they they kind of had a a cohesion to them.
00:29:17
And then I'm looking to see what's coming up.
00:29:19
So episode 6, it's called titled Pawns and Kings is written by
00:29:24
Mad Max Adams and then Jared Shaw, who we know is Boozer and
00:29:30
also producer on the show. And then we finish up with the
00:29:34
the season finales written by Jack Carr and David Digilio
00:29:36
again. So.
00:29:39
Interesting. I'm I'm kind of very happy to
00:29:42
hear that the last two episodes have Jared Shaw, Jack David
00:29:47
Degilio working on it because yes, the screenwriters, all the
00:29:50
other people who are in the room putting in their two cents, but
00:29:53
just those names as well-being in the room.
00:29:57
You're you're right TV and saying that is just a masterful
00:30:01
lineup and we're seeing that come through now.
00:30:05
Did you all catch and I could have been mistaken.
00:30:08
Did Gordo come back from the dead?
00:30:11
Gordo, the man himself, Jack Carr, was he one of those bad
00:30:15
guys in the tunnel shootout? I think he was the guy who tried
00:30:18
to get out of the SUV in the passenger side and just got shot
00:30:23
immediately after they they boxed him in.
00:30:25
I could be wrong, but actually I could hold it up to the screen.
00:30:28
I really think that was Jack Carr cameo.
00:30:30
Do you know anything about that TV?
00:30:31
If if I'm right on that. He's posted some pictures on
00:30:35
Instagram. There he is, the man, the
00:30:39
legend. The only character in the
00:30:41
terminal is to come back from the dead.
00:30:43
Yeah, I talked to him the other day and he was saying that they
00:30:51
were planning on him being able to get a few shots off, but the
00:30:56
timing wasn't right, so he had to go down immediately.
00:31:00
Yeah. He I, I saw that he posted.
00:31:03
He's like I, I, I, I think he said he lasted less than not as
00:31:07
long as he did in in terminalist so.
00:31:11
He actually got like a walk up scene in that one where you see
00:31:13
him in the mirror and he's walking into the restaurant.
00:31:15
Yeah, it was quicker here. That's funny.
00:31:20
Oh, so Speaking of these action scenes, these shoot outs, we we
00:31:22
essentially have between these two episodes, the tunnel hit and
00:31:27
that's compromised the hostel and that whole shoot out and
00:31:31
then we have the towel fight. Do you feel like each of those
00:31:35
did enough to live up to what they established?
00:31:37
I mean, when we opened with that bridge scene when we were on the
00:31:40
front lines of Iraq, I think they swung big in that they are
00:31:43
going to get the action, the military, the shootouts, right.
00:31:47
These two episodes I felt in the two big set action pieces
00:31:51
pivoted to more of like a video game, almost not easy to buy
00:31:55
into. It almost seemed like these
00:31:58
these bad guys were just being spawned.
00:32:00
All of a sudden they're like MPGS just spawning out of the
00:32:02
blue. It reminded me of Tom Clancy,
00:32:04
like playing Rainbow 6 and having to do, I don't know about
00:32:07
you guys, but I spent hours on the library trying to take down
00:32:10
all the guys in the library and the terrorists.
00:32:12
Just you turn a corner and then you know exactly where they're
00:32:14
going to spawn each time. I don't know.
00:32:16
I was a little taken out of it by the video game esqueness of
00:32:18
it all in those two shootouts. So as action set pieces, they
00:32:22
just fell a little lower for me than what they had in the first
00:32:25
few episodes. I don't know if you feel the
00:32:26
same way. I don't know I I'll agree with
00:32:33
you that the when they're at the hostel scene like that, but
00:32:37
while it was cool and like you know showing off Ben and and I
00:32:43
blanket on her name, but Eliza what's her name?
00:32:47
Eliza's you know readiness as operators.
00:32:51
Yeah, like they're kind of they know exactly where like the
00:32:55
shoot is going to pop and I guess it's kind of showing their
00:32:57
ability to work together. Like even though like they're
00:32:59
just like kind of met each other.
00:33:01
I did really like the tunnel scene.
00:33:03
I felt like that captured this, you know, close net the the way
00:33:08
they shot it. Like they were very close on
00:33:10
like, you know, wasn't like this.
00:33:11
We didn't really see this wide perspective.
00:33:13
We were close in with the, you know, people as they're going
00:33:17
and multiple times in these two episodes and we've we've seen
00:33:22
this throughout the series where they do like, you know, when a
00:33:25
bomb goes off or a frag goes off, they'll they'll slow
00:33:28
motion, but like the, the sound is still saying staying the same
00:33:32
speed. And then they speed it, you
00:33:34
know, and then they quickly speed up the camera again to
00:33:36
bring it back into Pat. Like how many times is Ben
00:33:38
Edwards going going to get a good shot or, or have to jump
00:33:42
out of a, an exploding vehicle or, or jump from some sort of
00:33:47
explosion? And and and and be, you know,
00:33:51
still OK, but I, yeah, I, I, I'll agree with you a little bit
00:33:56
on the for sure the hostile scene, but I did, I did quite
00:33:59
like the ton of scene. We, we said in the first 3
00:34:01
episodes it wasn't Grey Manesque, it wasn't over the top
00:34:04
bombastic violence and the shootouts were, were not
00:34:07
believable. And then this episode I felt
00:34:09
like it was a little more Grey Manesque.
00:34:10
You know, he's just surviving everything and then the car bomb
00:34:13
at the end. So TV, I'll let you go.
00:34:14
But yeah, I, I agree with you there.
00:34:16
Just felt a little bit less realistic then they established
00:34:20
early on. Yeah, And I guess one thing
00:34:25
would be earlier on in the season, Ben and his team are in
00:34:30
control of the fight, Sure. And at this point, he's not with
00:34:34
his team and he doesn't get to choose which cards he's going to
00:34:40
get. He's really getting rocked in
00:34:43
those fights and he he doesn't really have control like he did
00:34:48
it earlier on. I guess that speaks, that's a
00:34:51
great point. I guess it speaks to the
00:34:53
resources available when ACIA lone Wolf or dark wolf
00:34:57
operation, you know, couple of you guys just out on on the
00:35:00
fronts in the middle of a residential European city versus
00:35:05
a battlefield, an entire QRF on standby air support, gunboat
00:35:09
support, which I had on the river.
00:35:11
You know, the 50 cals, it's, it's really just you in the
00:35:15
street hiding behind walls and barriers, trying to blend in,
00:35:19
trying to escape. So I think you're right.
00:35:21
Maybe that speaks to the different mission parameters and
00:35:23
resources available on ACIA Black Ops team when things go
00:35:28
South verse a military front lines battle where things go
00:35:31
South, totally different procedures, totally different
00:35:33
set of operating rules. And so yeah, I that makes it
00:35:37
more viable, more believable to me.
00:35:39
I think that's a great point. And it's a far cry from when we
00:35:43
saw Rafe and Ben acting as these wolves, you know, when they're
00:35:48
trying to take down the the one arms dealer in what was that
00:35:52
episode 2 in the audition to now, you know, and it's even
00:35:59
echoed with Hastings is, you know, reservations about this
00:36:03
operation in terms of 1 collateral damage.
00:36:06
Two, we don't have the full picture, but you know, again, I
00:36:11
think it's also like that progression of Ben Edwards's
00:36:15
character in to how he's just has to continue on down this
00:36:20
path. And like, there's no going back
00:36:22
to him being like he was in the teams, you know, Like, yeah, he
00:36:26
has that knowledge, but he is becoming, you know, this entity
00:36:32
and that that is what these people do.
00:36:34
And that's the theme of Put on the Brakes, Rafe and Ben having
00:36:37
different philosophies. Rafe is totally now like, shit,
00:36:40
I should have put the brakes on. Like I, I took the guardrails
00:36:43
off hit and killing this German intelligence guy, torturing and
00:36:47
killing a friendly on in German intelligence.
00:36:50
Ben would be Ben and Eliza would be like, I don't care.
00:36:53
Like mission above self, mission above allies, mission above all
00:36:58
else, kind of the Mossad tagline, if you will, the
00:37:01
Israeli self determination self preservation line.
00:37:05
And Rafe is, I think, skirting with that and realizing that's
00:37:08
not where I want to go, and that's not where I want my
00:37:10
country to go. That's where I don't want my
00:37:12
country's intelligence apparatus to be forced to go.
00:37:15
And we're seeing Ben basically say, I'm fine playing by those
00:37:18
rules, especially now that they took Eliza from him when he
00:37:21
takes the bracelet. I'm wondering if that bracelet
00:37:23
was also a tracking or listening device.
00:37:27
I'm curious about the bracelet. Hopefully, I'm not too much of A
00:37:29
skeptic. Hopefully it's just a nice, you
00:37:31
know, heartfelt story about it and her child and her daughter.
00:37:35
I just think that's the difference between Ben and Rafe,
00:37:37
which has also been very compelling of where.
00:37:40
Where do they come out on the other side?
00:37:42
Let's say both of them finish this up, survive it or out of
00:37:46
the game, if you will. As much as you can be out of the
00:37:48
game, Where they come out on the opposite side is miles apart.
00:37:53
And they were both brought into the game in the same, on the
00:37:58
same page, being kicked out of the teams, having to cover for
00:38:01
each other, lying to military command, putting their asses on
00:38:03
the line, making up this fake story.
00:38:06
The Brotherhood is going to stick together no matter what.
00:38:09
Covering for Ben Now Ben goes loose cannon and Rafe is trying
00:38:12
to reel it in and realize I didn't want to go that far.
00:38:17
They started a little closer together.
00:38:19
They're going to end up on the other side, miles apart, which
00:38:21
again illuminates things that happened later on down the road.
00:38:24
So it's a great prequel story. It's a great story on its own.
00:38:29
It's an amazing prequel story to Ben Edwards and Ray Hastings.
00:38:36
Alright, TV, why don't you give us some predictions for what you
00:38:39
think how this story is going to end in the next two episodes?
00:38:42
Oh. Dangerous.
00:38:43
I've I've actually seen the other episodes already.
00:38:47
Oh do you have Wow got some screeners?
00:38:50
Did they have the watermark on them?
00:38:52
They did, yeah. Yeah.
00:38:54
OK. Oh.
00:38:58
So I guess, I guess we, we don't want, we don't want put you any
00:39:02
sort of compromising and I I don't want any spoilers.
00:39:04
But you've, you've been good then holding back with us and
00:39:07
with the audience. You've been really good at
00:39:09
holding back and sticking to episode by episode without
00:39:12
jumping the gun. Kudos.
00:39:16
Yeah, it's made so well, I would not want to spoil it for
00:39:19
anybody. OK, that's great.
00:39:22
That's great. It's good to hear.
00:39:24
How about this then? How about episodes four and five
00:39:26
as a package? What would you give us a letter
00:39:29
grade? You know, imagine you're, you're
00:39:31
sitting through your exams. What's the, what's the letter
00:39:33
grade you get? And then overall so far on what
00:39:37
you've seen in the season, what would you give overalls letter
00:39:39
grade? Oh.
00:39:43
I'm John the Spot a different way.
00:39:44
Yeah, I'm not a very harsh critic, but seeing Wraith be the
00:39:54
character that we know from the books and seen the fights that I
00:40:00
expected when I saw the teasers, I'm going with an A.
00:40:06
And man, another moment from Episode 5 that just gave me
00:40:11
chills was when Simple Man came on.
00:40:15
And yeah, man, like that was just Ben's song and calls back
00:40:19
to the first season and Jared Shaw's story.
00:40:24
That just really hit home. The needle drops in this in this
00:40:29
season is are really good. Yeah.
00:40:31
Big, big budget on that too. Soundtrack's been good now.
00:40:34
They played the actual Lynyrd Skynyrd version in the car at
00:40:37
the end, but the opening credits are a different version.
00:40:42
Yeah, and what? Do you think of the opening
00:40:45
credits? The intro.
00:40:48
I like them. Pretty good Muscat.
00:40:53
I haven't only because I've really been trying to look for
00:40:55
the details. We had Tyler Booer, another
00:40:58
super fan, Jack Carr, super fan on the pod a bunch of times and
00:41:01
he's the man for spotting gear. He he eats up every time Jack
00:41:04
Carr pushes, you know, gear in the books, which turned some
00:41:07
people off, but he's also a gear head.
00:41:08
So he was able to spot everything in Reese's.
00:41:12
What was it his garage or his workshop in the terminalist?
00:41:15
So I really like how they went with Ben's abode, slightly more
00:41:19
humble abode more. Not quite trailer park, but
00:41:22
almost to that level compared to Reese's in season 1.
00:41:27
His home with a family, he settled down, he's got a
00:41:30
daughter, he's got all his nostalgia, he's he's got his
00:41:33
weapons, he's got his patches. He's like.
00:41:35
It's a very good contrast seeing Ben Edwards personal life peek
00:41:39
behind the curtains than what we saw with Reese.
00:41:43
Yeah, and I love how in the Dark Wolf intro, it's like showing
00:41:50
with objects two different bends.
00:41:53
Like there's I think a sink and it doesn't have pills.
00:41:56
And then it does have, it has pills and some alcohol, and then
00:42:00
just other things around the boat like scuba tanks and spear
00:42:06
guns and then his weapons. And it just shows, like I think
00:42:12
him in the first season and then him now and him as a warrior and
00:42:18
then when he's off on his own. Yeah, and he fades.
00:42:22
I really like when that light goes to dark, he's standing in
00:42:25
the kitchen and and he fades. It's almost like his humanity
00:42:28
fading. I I think it's really symbolic
00:42:31
and well done. I think there's also a a
00:42:35
silhouette of someone's arm that you'll know if you've seen the
00:42:38
first season. Now I got to look for that.
00:42:43
Is that when he's standing there?
00:42:44
That's when you see that. Yeah, see, I'm not, I'm not good
00:42:51
at picking up Easter eggs. I have an attention span of like
00:42:55
a goldfish I guess. Well, Chris, there's a good
00:42:58
YouTube channel for you. We can help you out.
00:43:00
Yeah, I know, I know, I know. That's that's what we need.
00:43:02
That's what we need. Letter grade four and five is a
00:43:08
package. I don't know if I went like I
00:43:11
went B plus for Episode 1 and then I went straight A for 2/3.
00:43:15
I don't know, I think I'm going to go back down to like an A
00:43:17
minus for these. They're I don't know, I I still
00:43:23
like the progression of the story.
00:43:24
I like the introspection we're getting with, you know, this
00:43:28
sort of dichotomy between Rafe and and Ben throwing in some
00:43:32
action, they're throwing in some intrigue and it's got me super,
00:43:37
super looking forward to the next two episodes.
00:43:40
Like I can't wait for I don't know when Amazon does their
00:43:43
drops. Like I know it comes out
00:43:44
tomorrow. We're recording this on Tuesday,
00:43:47
September 16th. So like does it come out tonight
00:43:50
at midnight like or 3:00 PM like Pacific Time like or 3:00 AM
00:43:55
Pacific Time like I don't know. But I would watch it tomorrow
00:44:00
morning if it's available. Yeah, good.
00:44:01
Question like get to work early and then then hide my cubicle
00:44:05
and watch it? Yeah, and we, we were going to
00:44:09
package episode 6 and seven as our final episode.
00:44:11
If 6 does something phenomenal that we have to kind of jump on
00:44:15
and get that one done, we we may do that, but otherwise you won't
00:44:18
hear from us again talking Dark Wolf until episode 6 and seven
00:44:23
are out and we have a conclusion.
00:44:24
And we will be bringing on Tyler Brewer.
00:44:26
So yet another Jack. Our Supervan doesn't have his
00:44:29
own awesome YouTube channel about Easter eggs and spoilers,
00:44:32
but we'll talk to him about the conclusion.
00:44:38
Well, why don't you leave us with a plug?
00:44:40
We talked a little bit about your channel.
00:44:41
You opened up with it. Just tell the people where they
00:44:43
can find you. And how can people get into
00:44:45
Terminal vengeance? Yeah, my main platform is
00:44:50
YouTube. I try to be consistent with my
00:44:52
videos and I've built a pretty good community there and I love
00:44:58
interacting with other fans. But you can find me at Terminal
00:45:02
Vengeance on YouTube, Instagram and X, and I'm also launching my
00:45:07
website here shortly. Nice, cool.
00:45:11
That's awesome. Yeah.
00:45:13
No, this was this was great. I think one, I'm happy to see
00:45:19
younger, the younger generation like diving into these books
00:45:23
and, and, and enjoying these because, you know, it wasn't
00:45:27
long ago that I was in college and my buddy Mike and my buddy
00:45:32
Tom handed me my first Brad Thore and and Vince pin book.
00:45:35
And then, you know, they had a sucker for life, the Emily
00:45:39
Bessler books. And but, you know, I think it's
00:45:43
just the more we can build this community, the better.
00:45:47
So I encourage all of our listeners to go out there, check
00:45:50
you out, hit hit that subscribe button.
00:45:53
Yeah. And I look forward to watching
00:45:54
more. More of your Easter eggs for
00:45:57
sure. Thank you.
00:46:03
Yeah, thanks for coming on. Maybe we'll even get a chance to
00:46:05
talk Cry Havoc with you once that book comes out.
00:46:07
So when or any other time, we'd love to have you back on on the
00:46:10
show. So stay in touch.
00:46:12
And and thanks for all that you do to expand the Jacquard
00:46:15
universe. Yeah, thank you for having me.
00:46:18
This has been a blast and I'd love to come back on, but if not
00:46:22
I'll still be listening and I love what you all do.
00:46:27
Appreciate it. Thanks.
00:46:28
Thanks dude.