Episodes 4–5 push the story to new heights in The Terminal List: Dark Wolf. Major developments, character arcs, and tense action sequences are analyzed in detail.
⚠️ Full spoilers for this episode of The Terminal List: Dark Wolf
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CHAPTERS
04:52 Building a Community Around Books and Shows
08:02 Connecting Dark Wolf to True Believer
12:20 Anticipating Future Episodes and Guest Appearances
20:03 Character Development and Story Arcs
25:02 The Fog of War and Moral Ambiguity
27:33 Character Development and Storytelling
28:56 The Role of Writers in Shaping the Narrative
30:46 Cameos and Easter Eggs
32:20 Action Sequences: Expectations vs. Reality
35:30 Character Philosophies and Moral Dilemmas
39:16 Predictions and Future Episodes
00:00:17
Hey, guys, I'm Chris. And I'm Mike.
00:00:21
And welcome back to this week's and no limits, the Dark Wolf
00:00:25
after show how you doing today, Mike?
00:00:29
I'm good and I am very happy to introduce a special guest.
00:00:33
We are joined by TV, the creator behind the Terminal Vengeance
00:00:39
YouTube channel, Friend of the pod for a number of years now.
00:00:43
Welcome TV, you got to tell us all about your channel.
00:00:46
Thank you all for having me. Yeah.
00:00:48
So I started my channel a few years ago.
00:00:51
I basically make what I wanted to watch on YouTube.
00:00:54
I wanted to see people talking about the show and nobody really
00:00:58
was. So I started and I do like
00:01:01
Easter egg breakdowns, find the hidden details and like the
00:01:05
callbacks to the book and then make a video on it and I guess
00:01:10
people like it. Yeah, that's that's kind of why
00:01:14
we want to be the after show. We want to do those spoilers as
00:01:17
well. We want to dig in deep, find the
00:01:18
Nuggets, make it accessible for anybody who just watches the
00:01:22
shows, the first Terminal of season or now Dark Wolf so that
00:01:25
they have an after show to go to.
00:01:27
But we also want to bring people to the books.
00:01:29
That's our ultimate mission. We're book readers through and
00:01:31
through. I I mean, you and I connected
00:01:33
first a few years back over the books, the terminal list and I
00:01:37
think Red sky morning was coming out at the time and and so that
00:01:40
that has to be the mission of both the show itself and all the
00:01:43
commentary about the show. Let's get people to the books
00:01:46
because that's where James Reese is really James Reese.
00:01:48
I think on page is the James Reese I know and love.
00:01:51
The TV shows are fun, but we got to get people reading the books.
00:01:54
They're just incredible. Oh yeah, for sure.
00:01:57
I think it's easier to get people to watch a show, but it's
00:02:01
harder to get people into books. But when they get into them,
00:02:04
they're just hooked. So it just makes my day whenever
00:02:07
someone says I decided to buy the book and I'm loving it.
00:02:10
Yeah, no, it's it's great now I love your I love your
00:02:13
breakdowns. Like it, you know it.
00:02:15
It's interesting because I want this community to be like, you
00:02:22
know, I don't know, I, I look at some of the other things that I
00:02:25
want or I watch from, you know, like nerd verse, right?
00:02:31
You know, whether it's Marvel or X-Men, you know, like any of
00:02:37
these like IP machines. You know, you have a bunch of
00:02:40
podcasts out there, you have new rock stars, you have like the
00:02:42
ringer verse. You have a bunch of them yet
00:02:46
like they're they're and I don't, I feel like we're these
00:02:49
books aren't like that super niche.
00:02:51
Like they're literally New York time bestsellers.
00:02:53
Like every year. Like, you know, you walk through
00:02:55
any airport, you walk through any bookstore, you're going to
00:02:57
see it there and it's, it's pushed, but yet like the this
00:03:00
kind of community doesn't quite exist.
00:03:03
And so, you know, definitely, obviously love having you on and
00:03:06
want to elevate your stuff. I want more and more people to,
00:03:10
to like and subscribe and, and, and engage in this community
00:03:13
because the more people we get watching us or, you know,
00:03:16
watching you, listening to you, listening to us, I feel like it
00:03:19
just would breed other creators. You know, it just builds upon
00:03:23
this community that we would like to see happen.
00:03:28
Yeah. And I think age demographic as
00:03:31
well might be a difference. Some of those IPS you mentioned
00:03:34
and those channels like New Rockstar, Screen Rant, all the
00:03:36
others. I do wonder if older
00:03:39
demographics, I'm talking, you know, 50 plus would necessarily
00:03:43
be going to that media and content.
00:03:45
And I feel like they're not. But, you know, TV, your channel
00:03:49
speaks to a younger demographic. You yourself are, you know, on
00:03:53
the younger side, still in school.
00:03:55
So I feel like that, well, you need new media to do that,
00:03:57
right? You need the social media, you
00:03:59
need the podcast. And I think there's a big
00:04:02
opportunity. I don't know if it's years away
00:04:04
from channels like ours and yours popping off.
00:04:07
Yours has already grown massively looking at your stats.
00:04:10
So keep it coming. We want more of that.
00:04:12
What is it? A rising tide lifts all boats.
00:04:14
It's this space is definitely not crowded out like some
00:04:17
YouTube genres, you know, cooking, food, golf.
00:04:21
I feel like those things are so over saturated.
00:04:23
I think book YouTube is not there yet.
00:04:26
I think we're just on the precipice.
00:04:29
Yeah, for sure. You very rarely get to be the
00:04:32
first or the only, but sometimes, since nobody else is
00:04:36
talking about it, I am the first or I am the only person.
00:04:39
And I y'all too, like I've been listening to y'all talking about
00:04:42
Dark Wolf and it's been great to have someone else.
00:04:46
It's like when you see something, if you don't have any
00:04:49
friends that watch it, you want to talk to someone about it.
00:04:52
And that's kind of what the podcast is like.
00:04:55
Yeah, I mean, Mike, I don't know if you cut ended up cutting it
00:04:58
out of the episode or not, but like we went on this rant about
00:05:02
the lack of cultural zeitgeist that exists in in the world and
00:05:06
how I'm enjoying that. You know, Amazon Prime put out
00:05:11
like the first 3 episodes and is putting out these episodes one
00:05:14
per week because one gives me something to look forward to.
00:05:17
I'm a busy dad. I don't have time to binge, you
00:05:20
know, shows like I used to back in in high score college, but
00:05:24
also like, you know, it builds some suspense for it.
00:05:26
And like, I'll I'll be texting Mike or I'll I'll text in our,
00:05:31
you know, GroupMe chat. Like, Hey, like, what did you
00:05:33
think about this? What do you think about that?
00:05:34
You know, I feel like we've gotten farther and farther away
00:05:37
from that as a society back to, I don't know, like when one was
00:05:40
a lot. I guess Game of Thrones was
00:05:41
really the last one that that was kind of like that, you know,
00:05:44
breaking. I remember, I remember when the
00:05:46
Breaking Bad season finale came out.
00:05:48
This is dating me and like, you know, going to work right after
00:05:52
that and everyone was talking about it or, you know, like when
00:05:55
everyone hated the season 8 of of Game of Thrones, like
00:05:58
everyone was talking about that. So I don't know.
00:06:00
But I like, I know there are people that are engaging in this
00:06:03
in this season, Dark Wolf, people at work, you know, have
00:06:07
randomly brought it up and they're liking it so.
00:06:10
I think the marketing end on the production team side is way
00:06:14
better than the terminalist season 1.
00:06:17
For some reason, it's more findable on Amazon is more
00:06:20
billboards and things you know you're seeing posted in airports
00:06:23
and bus stops in major metropolitan areas.
00:06:25
So I feel like things are clicking now that weren't
00:06:29
necessarily there on the first run of the TV show.
00:06:32
And I think that's resonating with all these new media groups
00:06:35
because even, I think it was Screen Rant did some interviews
00:06:38
with all the actors. And however that publicity
00:06:40
machine gets rolling, I'm seeing Taylor Kitsch, Tom Hooper,
00:06:45
they're out on tour, right? They're they're doing tons of
00:06:47
content, tons of interview with big name media outlets.
00:06:50
And I don't recall that happening to this level.
00:06:52
Maybe it's also Chris Pratt's production team.
00:06:54
I know he has a big role in the show.
00:06:57
I, I just think they have a bigger platform with Dark Wolf
00:06:59
than they did the terminal list. And I'm kind of glad about that
00:07:03
one. I, I think it's just an overall
00:07:05
better show. I think it's more likely to
00:07:08
drive people to the books as well.
00:07:10
Even though James Reese was barely a figment of our
00:07:13
imagination episode 1 and poof gone like one and two and wasn't
00:07:17
even in real two really just a little in the beginning.
00:07:19
So I, I feel like I'm OK if people start with Dark Wolf, get
00:07:24
a little taste, either watch the show or read a book and they are
00:07:28
absolutely coming back to true believer.
00:07:30
And we didn't even say it. We are spoiling episodes 4:00
00:07:33
and 5:00 today. We already covered Chris and
00:07:35
I-12 and three. So TV, you're with us to talk
00:07:38
about four and five. These episodes are a massive
00:07:41
setup for True Believer. Like they're doubling down,
00:07:45
particularly in five with some things we get about Wraith
00:07:48
during the torture scene. Do you guys feel it?
00:07:50
Almost Dark Wolf is subtly and you wouldn't see it unless you
00:07:54
were a book reader, is subtly also teeing up True Believer to
00:07:57
come next year or 27 or whenever we get it.
00:08:02
Yeah, definitely. There's so many things that that
00:08:06
are like callbacks to the book. But like you're saying, if you
00:08:10
never read the book, it's not like in your face and you're not
00:08:13
getting lost when these these details are thrown in.
00:08:18
Yeah, I think it's, you know, we I don't know if we were talking
00:08:22
about this last time or, or offline.
00:08:25
While we love True believer as a book, I I felt like it would
00:08:29
have been hard, a hard jump to go from the terminalist to that
00:08:34
one, just like the way the book set up with, you know, the whole
00:08:38
beginning, being on a boat and traveling to Africa and all that
00:08:40
stuff. But then a lot of it is call
00:08:42
back. And so, you know, him thinking
00:08:44
about like the past or reminiscing about something.
00:08:47
And so instead of having that, you know, 1 putting it in this
00:08:53
origin story, in this medium here, obviously, you know, we
00:08:58
only got the the Cavs a big star in Taylor Kitsch for Ben
00:09:02
Edwards, and you want to get your money's worth out of that.
00:09:05
And I I would say he's doing very good in this episode.
00:09:08
And you're, you are seeing his progression, you know, teeing it
00:09:12
up to like, all right now. Now maybe I can understand more
00:09:15
of like how he, you know, and ends up switching in in in the
00:09:19
future in terminal list. So, yeah, I, I think, you know,
00:09:23
whoever sat down and was like, Hey, what do we do next?
00:09:26
I, I, I, I'm fully agreeing with like, all right, let's take a
00:09:29
step back. Let's do this prequel show, you
00:09:32
know, because we have what we have.
00:09:34
And I think it it's going to make Terminal List Season 2 true
00:09:38
believer that much better. Yeah, perfectly said.
00:09:43
Yeah, I, I can't agree more with that decision being the right
00:09:46
one as the direction to take the show.
00:09:49
And sometimes you do when books go back in time, think about
00:09:53
Mitch Rapp, right when Vince Flynn did American Assassin and
00:09:57
then that trilogy never wrapped up.
00:09:58
Then he jumped ahead and, you know, ultimately ended up with
00:10:01
The Last Man. I feel like some people were
00:10:03
lost. Some of the readers got a little
00:10:05
confused about the timeline and it opened up this whole where do
00:10:08
we begin? Do you begin with American
00:10:09
Assassin? Do you begin with term limits or
00:10:12
transfer power? I could see that happening with
00:10:15
The Terminalist. But I think over time, let's say
00:10:18
they make 6-7 whatever TV shows, dark Wolf's number one, like I,
00:10:22
I do think of dark Wolf as like the first season you watch.
00:10:25
So I feel like that's pretty clear and it's going to make
00:10:29
you're right, particularly the ending of terminalist book or TV
00:10:31
show much because one of the biggest criticisms at the end of
00:10:35
the TV show kind of in the book too, is what the hell happened
00:10:39
with Ben? Like what his seal mate, his
00:10:42
seal brother. That's a very big critique of
00:10:45
that book. I and I understand that.
00:10:47
And then Jack was smart enough to realize that.
00:10:50
So he carries it over, not too many spoilers into True believer
00:10:54
Savage Son and maybe even beyond where Katie is asking how did
00:10:58
you know Ben wouldn't kill me? How did you know I'd survive the
00:11:00
attack? And so that storyline of like,
00:11:03
why did this happen? And this was a strange sequence
00:11:06
of occurrence that came out of the blue.
00:11:08
Like I don't know if the twist completely lands.
00:11:10
Well, that had to be unpacked under a couple of books after.
00:11:13
Like that was a lingering storyline, Reese and Katie's
00:11:16
relationship after the whole events of Ben and the debt cord
00:11:19
and etcetera. And I feel like Dark Wolf is
00:11:22
giving the space to answer that or preview that kind of get
00:11:26
ahead of it. So it doesn't seem as such an
00:11:28
out of the blue strange occurrence when you get to the
00:11:30
end of terminalist, although on TV show.
00:11:35
Speaking of Katie, and I don't want to bring it up too much
00:11:37
because there's a dark wolf podcast.
00:11:39
I don't know how they're going to sell the audience that Katie
00:11:41
and Reese are a thing or a couple.
00:11:44
So I I I've yet to see what they're going to do with that
00:11:46
and true believer. But I'm I'm putting the cart
00:11:48
before the horse there. We got a lot of story to tell
00:11:50
before that. Yeah, they are filming True
00:11:55
Believer because we will have Jack Carr coming on the podcast
00:11:59
and I've got to wake up at 4:30 AM for that because he is abroad
00:12:03
internationally filming True Believer and getting that show
00:12:07
on the road. So things to look forward to for
00:12:10
the No Limits faithful out there.
00:12:11
And TV, the Terminal Vengeance channel will also have a little
00:12:15
Jack car preview. Are we allowed to say that?
00:12:17
Yeah, I was able to talk to him a few days ago and we had a
00:12:21
great conversation. It'll probably be a two-part
00:12:25
release because I asked him some questions about the finale, but
00:12:30
I'm excited to get it out there. And you guys also talk cry
00:12:34
havoc. We did, yeah.
00:12:36
I really enjoyed Cry Havoc and I asked him some like general
00:12:42
questions. So nothing spoiled for people
00:12:44
who haven't read it. And yeah, you can tell how
00:12:49
passionate he is about Tom Reece and his story.
00:12:53
And like, I asked him, like, why this was the time to jump from
00:12:58
James Reece to Tom Reece. And we had a great conversation.
00:13:04
So the little there's a little of a side, but how did you get
00:13:08
into these books? Well, I was.
00:13:13
I guess I was just listening to a lot of audio books and I'd go
00:13:17
from subject to subject and I landed on the military and I I
00:13:23
hit like aviation and then I went into special operations and
00:13:28
found Jack Cars books because it was in that section.
00:13:32
And I just started listening to them and immediately binge the
00:13:36
first three and then I was hooked.
00:13:38
Nice. So have you ventured out into
00:13:43
like other thriller reverse authors?
00:13:47
Yeah, I've started Brad Thore and Vince Flynn and then a few
00:13:53
others out there, but mainly those.
00:13:58
And so you're, you're mainly an audiobook guy.
00:14:01
I started out in audiobooks, but I think I like physical copies.
00:14:06
Now, OK, you know, Chris and I were wondering, and I thought I
00:14:10
heard it again. There was a little phone call
00:14:13
with Tom, not Tom Reese, with Jonathan Hastings on the phone.
00:14:19
And we were both wondering if either Ray Porter was that
00:14:22
voice. I didn't go back and listen to
00:14:24
it. There's another phone call here
00:14:25
where I'm like, Oh my God, it sounds like Ray Porter too.
00:14:28
So I don't know if they actually used him in The Dark Wolf, but
00:14:31
there's some references that totally make me think of Ray
00:14:34
Porter's performance in the books.
00:14:35
Anytime we hear a Hastings, Tom Hooper or one of these phone
00:14:38
calls, I'm just like, man, that's taking me back to hearing
00:14:41
the audio book with these Rhodesian accents and
00:14:44
everything. They're getting all those parts
00:14:45
right. Yeah, he just, the way he reads
00:14:48
it is so good that when I go back and read like the
00:14:52
Terminalist, I can hear his voice like I'm reading in his
00:14:56
voice. And I did check IMDb, it is Ray
00:15:01
Porter, which is really neat. All right.
00:15:04
Oh wow. Nice.
00:15:05
Chris, I think, I think you called that one on the last
00:15:07
episode. You also made another major
00:15:10
call. Maybe it's time to get into the
00:15:11
spoilers of Episode 4. Eliza.
00:15:16
Chris, you said on our episode 3 coverage you don't trust her.
00:15:21
You think she might be a rat and and then episode 4 ends with the
00:15:24
shots in the back. What did you think when that
00:15:26
happened? I, I, I 100% saw it coming.
00:15:29
You know, you know, I feel like putting Mossad in bed with the
00:15:34
CIA. You know, we've, we've read too
00:15:36
many of these stories to know that it's, it's, you know, going
00:15:40
to go bad in, in some fashion where Israel always Trump's most
00:15:46
of the time, you know, what's going to go on.
00:15:48
But you know, I've, I feel like they were setting this up.
00:15:51
I'm super intrigued to see, you know, I, I know we're covering
00:15:55
4:00 and 5:00. So obviously setting up that,
00:15:59
you know, sort of turn there and then immediately, you know,
00:16:01
confronting it. This this show waste no time.
00:16:04
Like, you know, I I almost feel like this show could have been
00:16:06
longer. Like do you guys feel that like
00:16:09
they could have? Completely.
00:16:10
Made it and not that I think it's bad, it's not like, you
00:16:14
know, some other shows where they're jumping around too much
00:16:16
and you know it it, but I I do feel like it it could have
00:16:19
deserved, you know, a longer season just to draw some of
00:16:24
these other things. But that being said, you know,
00:16:27
we jump right back into it and then having the end of the last
00:16:31
episode end with her death like that was just crazy to me.
00:16:39
It's moving quick, and I at one point asked myself, is the show
00:16:43
a little too easy? They tease something up and then
00:16:47
the payoff is the next scene, the cutscene.
00:16:49
There's no drawing it out. And so to go from one episode
00:16:54
she turns on him to the second episode.
00:16:56
It's basically Episode 5, the Eliza and Ben show.
00:17:00
It hits them mending that relationship, being forced into
00:17:04
mending that relationship with a hostile hit.
00:17:06
We get two of these massive set action pieces and they both are
00:17:10
basically framed with Eliza and Ben's relationship in the
00:17:15
background. You know, they have to go scout
00:17:17
out the tunnel. The guard finds them, they start
00:17:20
making out. So it's like even on this
00:17:21
tunnel, OP, are things compromised because they're
00:17:24
getting too close? And Rafe even warns him and
00:17:26
confronts him about that in the let's be manly and chop wood
00:17:29
scene. With even that, I could have
00:17:32
taken a longer montage of they, they like chopped 2 pieces of
00:17:35
wood and it's cut like, no, I want to see these hunky dudes
00:17:39
cutting wood. You know, like, give me, give me
00:17:41
at least 2 minutes of that. But they jump from that too
00:17:45
quickly. And then Eliza's blown up next
00:17:47
episode right after they mend things.
00:17:49
And I think you're right, Chris, that's a consequence of seven
00:17:52
episodes. I wish this was 910.
00:17:55
I, I, I don't know how Amazon and the studios mandated that.
00:17:59
So I do think the writers room is doing the best they can with
00:18:02
those constraints. I understand a little timeline
00:18:05
compression, understand a little compression of dialogue to
00:18:09
advance storylines and relationships quicker than I
00:18:12
would like. And the one that is kind of
00:18:15
taking a backseat in episode 4 and five and and maybe why I'm a
00:18:19
little lower on them, Moe's just gone.
00:18:22
Like that impacted me not having MO after the shootout.
00:18:26
It, it seems like, well, not to say too much, but it seems like
00:18:30
it wasn't a mortal wound, like it was shot under the vest
00:18:34
somewhere in in the side in the oblique or something.
00:18:37
So it just seems like they're moving a little too quickly, but
00:18:40
then they're ignoring some storylines like that that I
00:18:42
loved. Maybe that's them trying to say
00:18:45
the team is split up. Like we haven't even seen
00:18:47
Haverford really after he took out the physicist.
00:18:51
So I guess this is trying to say the team's in shambles.
00:18:54
The team is spread out. This is the Ben and Eliza show.
00:18:56
Now. I really do help hope.
00:18:58
I know there's only two episodes left.
00:19:00
I do hope we get the MO Show and the Jed Haverford show because I
00:19:04
I want that equally as much as we've had screen time with Ben
00:19:07
and Eliza these two episodes. Yeah, I think part of that might
00:19:13
be the consequence of having a lot of major characters.
00:19:18
And I'm, I'm curious to see if people who haven't read True
00:19:24
Believer have the same critique on MO because we know he's a big
00:19:29
character, but other people aren't really going to know
00:19:32
that. Sure, we were so high on MO and
00:19:36
even Landry being tossed in here early because we know what's to
00:19:40
come with them. If I were an outsider, I think
00:19:42
looking at MO, I'd be fine with it by the look at Landry and be
00:19:45
like the Hell's going on with this guy, which again is is
00:19:49
teeing something up. But I don't know if I want to
00:19:51
say they're mishandled in their their storylines.
00:19:54
MO I don't think was in episodes 123, but I might say, yeah, it's
00:19:58
being mishandled now. And so I'm curious what 6 and
00:20:00
seven will do to bring the team back.
00:20:03
Does the team need to come back? But we need to see more of MO
00:20:06
and Jed and and those characters.
00:20:08
I really love that they put a lot of time and effort in too
00:20:11
early. Like we even get a tall show
00:20:13
here. Tall has her scene.
00:20:14
And I was really glad about that because I needed to see that
00:20:16
great, great combat scene, hand to hand action scene.
00:20:21
Someone commented under my review for Dark Wolf and they
00:20:25
said if there was a girl boss fight, then they were going to
00:20:28
be out of the show. And I knew that one was going,
00:20:31
but they did not. Yeah, they did not do the like
00:20:36
standard girl boss fight. It was like she was really
00:20:41
getting rocked and she was even like screaming for help and she
00:20:44
had to use like improvised weapons and stuff.
00:20:47
But that was a killer fight. Yeah, and I think it played up
00:20:53
it it was believable, you know, because we know that built from
00:20:56
like the well, I don't know, the first or second episode, you
00:20:58
know, when she struggled like pulling out that gun, like she
00:21:01
didn't just immediately get the shots off and and get it.
00:21:04
She had to struggle with it, you know, like you said, weapon
00:21:08
improvisation. And even to the fact that right
00:21:10
after she killed the dude, she had to throw up.
00:21:12
Like, you know, she it's emotional, it's raw, it's it's
00:21:18
true to her character. And I feel like they're doing a
00:21:21
really good job of, you know, 1 developing each of the
00:21:27
characters. But then, like you said, Mike
00:21:29
giving them their like moment. And I do need to see more of a
00:21:34
Haverford moment. I feel like we were kind of
00:21:38
peeling back the onion of him in.
00:21:41
I don't know if it was episode 4 with with Ray from the phone
00:21:43
call, but I want to see more of him.
00:21:47
And then I definitely want to talk to you guys about like the
00:21:50
rape scene, like in in in this whole interrogation and and then
00:21:55
ultimately finding out that, hey, this guy is actually
00:21:59
undercover. I was a little confused.
00:22:00
So we supposed to take it to mean that he was undercover or
00:22:05
that entire team was a German operative team?
00:22:08
I guess we don't. Do we not know?
00:22:10
That's the question. This colleague network was
00:22:13
somehow involved with the transfer of these bearings.
00:22:16
And I guess the question is, was German intelligence compromised
00:22:20
and actually someone in German intelligence, this guy's boss or
00:22:23
even this guy who's being tortured working alongside them?
00:22:26
This guy's trying to sell. No, we weren't.
00:22:28
Then are they like Mossad? Are they trying to undermine the
00:22:33
Iranian nuclear program? Did they put fake bearings in?
00:22:35
Because at one time Ben is manipulating the bearings in
00:22:39
that cinema museum rundown warehouse thing and and Eliza
00:22:43
sees him playing with the bearings and he says something's
00:22:45
not right about these. So is this a German intelligence
00:22:49
op? Is, is Germany undermining the
00:22:52
Iranian nuke deal? They actually want them to have
00:22:54
centrifuges. So they're trying to get them
00:22:56
the right bearings. I that's one of those mystery
00:22:58
boxes that I'm kind of happy with.
00:23:03
So, yeah, the torture scene with Rafe Jack car through and
00:23:07
through, right. If if James Reese isn't going to
00:23:09
be the one doing a torture scene, give it to Rafe Hastings.
00:23:12
Make him the bad ass mother fucker doing it.
00:23:14
So I was completely happy with that.
00:23:17
I don't know, I think the German thing is up for grabs and this
00:23:20
kind of parallels the shepherd. The Shepherd is compromising
00:23:25
submission and Mossad wants to figure it out.
00:23:27
That's why Eliza and Tal were actually tailing Jed, trying to
00:23:31
see, is he in on the game? Is the Shepherd playing him?
00:23:35
Is the Shepherd like this deep, deep covered double mole, secret
00:23:39
mole that ultimately is running Jed?
00:23:41
Is that what's going on here? And I think by looping in the
00:23:44
Germans and the Iranian nukes, we're seeing the consequences of
00:23:47
that. Whatever the Shepherd's able to
00:23:48
do is now having all these downstream effects of other
00:23:51
intelligence agencies having shootouts in European cities and
00:23:55
some terrorist network involved and bombs going off and car
00:23:58
bombs is a Mossad. Is it this colleague network?
00:24:03
Is it whoever is working with this German guy?
00:24:06
Is it Jed and the Shepherd? Like I think there's so many
00:24:08
mystery boxes that six and seven's got to land this plane.
00:24:11
We have to start getting answers to some of these things.
00:24:13
But I am bought into each of those storylines as its own
00:24:16
thread. Do you, would you agree?
00:24:19
TV on your channel? Have you talked about the
00:24:22
mystery box of it all and who's really the bad guy here?
00:24:27
I haven't gotten into the recent episodes, but one thing that I
00:24:32
liked about the torture scene and how that played out was I
00:24:38
think it really illustrates the fog of war well.
00:24:42
And even the bearings and the Khalid network, nobody really
00:24:48
knows what's going on. The audience doesn't know you're
00:24:51
right there with them. And I think even like episode 1
00:24:58
with Duron, there's some things that aren't black and white, and
00:25:02
I think Dark Wolf shows that and they go somewhere that most
00:25:07
shows probably wouldn't dare. Yeah, no, there there's, I think
00:25:13
look back to the scene of, you know, Ben Edwards just capping a
00:25:17
dude in the middle of a subway right after smiling at a little
00:25:20
girl. Like, you know, it's the show is
00:25:23
like I said, it's it's a little raw.
00:25:25
It's, you know, kind of showing you the trying to show you the
00:25:30
inner workings of, you know, CIA operatives, that kind of stuff.
00:25:35
I think look back to some other shows that have done this really
00:25:37
well. I think Homeland, the first
00:25:39
couple seasons, you know, slow horses.
00:25:43
I don't know if you guys have watched that show, but yeah,
00:25:47
like it's it's interesting to see.
00:25:51
I have no idea where I, you know, where this is going to go.
00:25:55
And I think that's ultimately a good thing.
00:25:58
I think it's like you said, Mike, I'm, I'm intrigued enough
00:26:01
and I'm not disappointed that like I'm, I'm pissed off like,
00:26:04
you know, other shows, like when you don't have enough intrigue
00:26:08
or there's too many loose ends with two episodes to go, you
00:26:14
know, you can kind of like check out or be like, I'm not buying
00:26:17
the show. But here I do think they have a
00:26:20
chance to quote UN quote and land the plane and wrap
00:26:23
everything up in the next two episodes.
00:26:25
And then hopefully, you know, sail us into a true believer.
00:26:29
So. Yeah, I'm, I'm a harsh critic on
00:26:32
both TV and books. So on the podcast I've had a lot
00:26:36
of hot takes. I will say I could very easily
00:26:40
be turned off by some of that and go, I don't really care who
00:26:43
the shepherd is. This is this is ridiculous.
00:26:45
No, I really care. Like I really want to know who's
00:26:49
running who. And they sold me so hard on Jed
00:26:52
being the good soldier, right? Being the the faithful one, his
00:26:56
whole life is in this decades of experience.
00:26:58
He was involved in Stuxnet, he was involved in other
00:27:03
operations, even mentioned Lebanon and Beirut and really
00:27:09
cool flashback. They even show footage from the
00:27:11
Beirut bombings. And knowing that was another one
00:27:13
of Jack Carr's books and one of his, you know, personal pet
00:27:16
projects with amazing book by the way, to actually bring that
00:27:20
into the show and have that with the character of Jed.
00:27:22
I was loving. I was eating it up.
00:27:24
I was lapping it out of their hands and now Mossad is trying
00:27:27
to convince us Jed is compromised.
00:27:30
Jed's been being played. I'm very much bought into that.
00:27:34
So I'd be the first one to critique these things if I
00:27:36
didn't think they were working, if I thought they were cheap
00:27:39
cuts or easy way out or they're taking shortcuts, cheap shots.
00:27:42
I not at all. I think they built this up
00:27:44
really well. I think the storytelling is
00:27:46
great, and maybe that's because they're unburdened by a book.
00:27:50
The Terminal is first season. Some of the best parts and
00:27:54
characters were people off book that the screenwriters just felt
00:27:57
free to do so and tell the story they need to tell, write
00:28:01
dialogue they need to write. And some of the scenes that
00:28:04
didn't land were ones where they tried too hard to be faithful to
00:28:07
the book but couldn't or didn't and it got sloppy.
00:28:11
I feel like the show really has the freedom to let the writers
00:28:14
do what they need to do and tell the story they need to tell and
00:28:16
it's and it's mostly working. Yeah, I think they have.
00:28:21
I think this is what happens when you have like 10 master
00:28:26
storytellers together instead of 1 and they get it.
00:28:29
Create something and everybody gets to put their input in and
00:28:34
the best idea wins instead of I mean the books are really good,
00:28:39
but when you have a bunch of people to bounce ideas off of, I
00:28:43
think you really get the best product you can.
00:28:48
And I'm just looking at like the writers of each individual show,
00:28:52
you know, or each individual episode.
00:28:54
So we have episode 1 was story by Jack Carr and Dave Djilio,
00:29:00
who producer on the show. Then we have two episodes by
00:29:06
Matt Mac Adams, episodes two and three.
00:29:09
And that you can kind of see like, you know, thinking back to
00:29:11
those two, they they kind of had a a cohesion to them.
00:29:17
And then I'm looking to see what's coming up.
00:29:19
So episode 6, it's called titled Pawns and Kings is written by
00:29:24
Mad Max Adams and then Jared Shaw, who we know is Boozer and
00:29:30
also producer on the show. And then we finish up with the
00:29:34
the season finales written by Jack Carr and David Digilio
00:29:36
again. So.
00:29:39
Interesting. I'm I'm kind of very happy to
00:29:42
hear that the last two episodes have Jared Shaw, Jack David
00:29:47
Degilio working on it because yes, the screenwriters, all the
00:29:50
other people who are in the room putting in their two cents, but
00:29:53
just those names as well-being in the room.
00:29:57
You're you're right TV and saying that is just a masterful
00:30:01
lineup and we're seeing that come through now.
00:30:05
Did you all catch and I could have been mistaken.
00:30:08
Did Gordo come back from the dead?
00:30:11
Gordo, the man himself, Jack Carr, was he one of those bad
00:30:15
guys in the tunnel shootout? I think he was the guy who tried
00:30:18
to get out of the SUV in the passenger side and just got shot
00:30:23
immediately after they they boxed him in.
00:30:25
I could be wrong, but actually I could hold it up to the screen.
00:30:28
I really think that was Jack Carr cameo.
00:30:30
Do you know anything about that TV?
00:30:31
If if I'm right on that. He's posted some pictures on
00:30:35
Instagram. There he is, the man, the
00:30:39
legend. The only character in the
00:30:41
terminal is to come back from the dead.
00:30:43
Yeah, I talked to him the other day and he was saying that they
00:30:51
were planning on him being able to get a few shots off, but the
00:30:56
timing wasn't right, so he had to go down immediately.
00:31:00
Yeah. He I, I saw that he posted.
00:31:03
He's like I, I, I, I think he said he lasted less than not as
00:31:07
long as he did in in terminalist so.
00:31:11
He actually got like a walk up scene in that one where you see
00:31:13
him in the mirror and he's walking into the restaurant.
00:31:15
Yeah, it was quicker here. That's funny.
00:31:20
Oh, so Speaking of these action scenes, these shoot outs, we we
00:31:22
essentially have between these two episodes, the tunnel hit and
00:31:27
that's compromised the hostel and that whole shoot out and
00:31:31
then we have the towel fight. Do you feel like each of those
00:31:35
did enough to live up to what they established?
00:31:37
I mean, when we opened with that bridge scene when we were on the
00:31:40
front lines of Iraq, I think they swung big in that they are
00:31:43
going to get the action, the military, the shootouts, right.
00:31:47
These two episodes I felt in the two big set action pieces
00:31:51
pivoted to more of like a video game, almost not easy to buy
00:31:55
into. It almost seemed like these
00:31:58
these bad guys were just being spawned.
00:32:00
All of a sudden they're like MPGS just spawning out of the
00:32:02
blue. It reminded me of Tom Clancy,
00:32:04
like playing Rainbow 6 and having to do, I don't know about
00:32:07
you guys, but I spent hours on the library trying to take down
00:32:10
all the guys in the library and the terrorists.
00:32:12
Just you turn a corner and then you know exactly where they're
00:32:14
going to spawn each time. I don't know.
00:32:16
I was a little taken out of it by the video game esqueness of
00:32:18
it all in those two shootouts. So as action set pieces, they
00:32:22
just fell a little lower for me than what they had in the first
00:32:25
few episodes. I don't know if you feel the
00:32:26
same way. I don't know I I'll agree with
00:32:33
you that the when they're at the hostel scene like that, but
00:32:37
while it was cool and like you know showing off Ben and and I
00:32:43
blanket on her name, but Eliza what's her name?
00:32:47
Eliza's you know readiness as operators.
00:32:51
Yeah, like they're kind of they know exactly where like the
00:32:55
shoot is going to pop and I guess it's kind of showing their
00:32:57
ability to work together. Like even though like they're
00:32:59
just like kind of met each other.
00:33:01
I did really like the tunnel scene.
00:33:03
I felt like that captured this, you know, close net the the way
00:33:08
they shot it. Like they were very close on
00:33:10
like, you know, wasn't like this.
00:33:11
We didn't really see this wide perspective.
00:33:13
We were close in with the, you know, people as they're going
00:33:17
and multiple times in these two episodes and we've we've seen
00:33:22
this throughout the series where they do like, you know, when a
00:33:25
bomb goes off or a frag goes off, they'll they'll slow
00:33:28
motion, but like the, the sound is still saying staying the same
00:33:32
speed. And then they speed it, you
00:33:34
know, and then they quickly speed up the camera again to
00:33:36
bring it back into Pat. Like how many times is Ben
00:33:38
Edwards going going to get a good shot or, or have to jump
00:33:42
out of a, an exploding vehicle or, or jump from some sort of
00:33:47
explosion? And and and and be, you know,
00:33:51
still OK, but I, yeah, I, I, I'll agree with you a little bit
00:33:56
on the for sure the hostile scene, but I did, I did quite
00:33:59
like the ton of scene. We, we said in the first 3
00:34:01
episodes it wasn't Grey Manesque, it wasn't over the top
00:34:04
bombastic violence and the shootouts were, were not
00:34:07
believable. And then this episode I felt
00:34:09
like it was a little more Grey Manesque.
00:34:10
You know, he's just surviving everything and then the car bomb
00:34:13
at the end. So TV, I'll let you go.
00:34:14
But yeah, I, I agree with you there.
00:34:16
Just felt a little bit less realistic then they established
00:34:20
early on. Yeah, And I guess one thing
00:34:25
would be earlier on in the season, Ben and his team are in
00:34:30
control of the fight, Sure. And at this point, he's not with
00:34:34
his team and he doesn't get to choose which cards he's going to
00:34:40
get. He's really getting rocked in
00:34:43
those fights and he he doesn't really have control like he did
00:34:48
it earlier on. I guess that speaks, that's a
00:34:51
great point. I guess it speaks to the
00:34:53
resources available when ACIA lone Wolf or dark wolf
00:34:57
operation, you know, couple of you guys just out on on the
00:35:00
fronts in the middle of a residential European city versus
00:35:05
a battlefield, an entire QRF on standby air support, gunboat
00:35:09
support, which I had on the river.
00:35:11
You know, the 50 cals, it's, it's really just you in the
00:35:15
street hiding behind walls and barriers, trying to blend in,
00:35:19
trying to escape. So I think you're right.
00:35:21
Maybe that speaks to the different mission parameters and
00:35:23
resources available on ACIA Black Ops team when things go
00:35:28
South verse a military front lines battle where things go
00:35:31
South, totally different procedures, totally different
00:35:33
set of operating rules. And so yeah, I that makes it
00:35:37
more viable, more believable to me.
00:35:39
I think that's a great point. And it's a far cry from when we
00:35:43
saw Rafe and Ben acting as these wolves, you know, when they're
00:35:48
trying to take down the the one arms dealer in what was that
00:35:52
episode 2 in the audition to now, you know, and it's even
00:35:59
echoed with Hastings is, you know, reservations about this
00:36:03
operation in terms of 1 collateral damage.
00:36:06
Two, we don't have the full picture, but you know, again, I
00:36:11
think it's also like that progression of Ben Edwards's
00:36:15
character in to how he's just has to continue on down this
00:36:20
path. And like, there's no going back
00:36:22
to him being like he was in the teams, you know, Like, yeah, he
00:36:26
has that knowledge, but he is becoming, you know, this entity
00:36:32
and that that is what these people do.
00:36:34
And that's the theme of Put on the Brakes, Rafe and Ben having
00:36:37
different philosophies. Rafe is totally now like, shit,
00:36:40
I should have put the brakes on. Like I, I took the guardrails
00:36:43
off hit and killing this German intelligence guy, torturing and
00:36:47
killing a friendly on in German intelligence.
00:36:50
Ben would be Ben and Eliza would be like, I don't care.
00:36:53
Like mission above self, mission above allies, mission above all
00:36:58
else, kind of the Mossad tagline, if you will, the
00:37:01
Israeli self determination self preservation line.
00:37:05
And Rafe is, I think, skirting with that and realizing that's
00:37:08
not where I want to go, and that's not where I want my
00:37:10
country to go. That's where I don't want my
00:37:12
country's intelligence apparatus to be forced to go.
00:37:15
And we're seeing Ben basically say, I'm fine playing by those
00:37:18
rules, especially now that they took Eliza from him when he
00:37:21
takes the bracelet. I'm wondering if that bracelet
00:37:23
was also a tracking or listening device.
00:37:27
I'm curious about the bracelet. Hopefully, I'm not too much of A
00:37:29
skeptic. Hopefully it's just a nice, you
00:37:31
know, heartfelt story about it and her child and her daughter.
00:37:35
I just think that's the difference between Ben and Rafe,
00:37:37
which has also been very compelling of where.
00:37:40
Where do they come out on the other side?
00:37:42
Let's say both of them finish this up, survive it or out of
00:37:46
the game, if you will. As much as you can be out of the
00:37:48
game, Where they come out on the opposite side is miles apart.
00:37:53
And they were both brought into the game in the same, on the
00:37:58
same page, being kicked out of the teams, having to cover for
00:38:01
each other, lying to military command, putting their asses on
00:38:03
the line, making up this fake story.
00:38:06
The Brotherhood is going to stick together no matter what.
00:38:09
Covering for Ben Now Ben goes loose cannon and Rafe is trying
00:38:12
to reel it in and realize I didn't want to go that far.
00:38:17
They started a little closer together.
00:38:19
They're going to end up on the other side, miles apart, which
00:38:21
again illuminates things that happened later on down the road.
00:38:24
So it's a great prequel story. It's a great story on its own.
00:38:29
It's an amazing prequel story to Ben Edwards and Ray Hastings.
00:38:36
Alright, TV, why don't you give us some predictions for what you
00:38:39
think how this story is going to end in the next two episodes?
00:38:42
Oh. Dangerous.
00:38:43
I've I've actually seen the other episodes already.
00:38:47
Oh do you have Wow got some screeners?
00:38:50
Did they have the watermark on them?
00:38:52
They did, yeah. Yeah.
00:38:54
OK. Oh.
00:38:58
So I guess, I guess we, we don't want, we don't want put you any
00:39:02
sort of compromising and I I don't want any spoilers.
00:39:04
But you've, you've been good then holding back with us and
00:39:07
with the audience. You've been really good at
00:39:09
holding back and sticking to episode by episode without
00:39:12
jumping the gun. Kudos.
00:39:16
Yeah, it's made so well, I would not want to spoil it for
00:39:19
anybody. OK, that's great.
00:39:22
That's great. It's good to hear.
00:39:24
How about this then? How about episodes four and five
00:39:26
as a package? What would you give us a letter
00:39:29
grade? You know, imagine you're, you're
00:39:31
sitting through your exams. What's the, what's the letter
00:39:33
grade you get? And then overall so far on what
00:39:37
you've seen in the season, what would you give overalls letter
00:39:39
grade? Oh.
00:39:43
I'm John the Spot a different way.
00:39:44
Yeah, I'm not a very harsh critic, but seeing Wraith be the
00:39:54
character that we know from the books and seen the fights that I
00:40:00
expected when I saw the teasers, I'm going with an A.
00:40:06
And man, another moment from Episode 5 that just gave me
00:40:11
chills was when Simple Man came on.
00:40:15
And yeah, man, like that was just Ben's song and calls back
00:40:19
to the first season and Jared Shaw's story.
00:40:24
That just really hit home. The needle drops in this in this
00:40:29
season is are really good. Yeah.
00:40:31
Big, big budget on that too. Soundtrack's been good now.
00:40:34
They played the actual Lynyrd Skynyrd version in the car at
00:40:37
the end, but the opening credits are a different version.
00:40:42
Yeah, and what? Do you think of the opening
00:40:45
credits? The intro.
00:40:48
I like them. Pretty good Muscat.
00:40:53
I haven't only because I've really been trying to look for
00:40:55
the details. We had Tyler Booer, another
00:40:58
super fan, Jack Carr, super fan on the pod a bunch of times and
00:41:01
he's the man for spotting gear. He he eats up every time Jack
00:41:04
Carr pushes, you know, gear in the books, which turned some
00:41:07
people off, but he's also a gear head.
00:41:08
So he was able to spot everything in Reese's.
00:41:12
What was it his garage or his workshop in the terminalist?
00:41:15
So I really like how they went with Ben's abode, slightly more
00:41:19
humble abode more. Not quite trailer park, but
00:41:22
almost to that level compared to Reese's in season 1.
00:41:27
His home with a family, he settled down, he's got a
00:41:30
daughter, he's got all his nostalgia, he's he's got his
00:41:33
weapons, he's got his patches. He's like.
00:41:35
It's a very good contrast seeing Ben Edwards personal life peek
00:41:39
behind the curtains than what we saw with Reese.
00:41:43
Yeah, and I love how in the Dark Wolf intro, it's like showing
00:41:50
with objects two different bends.
00:41:53
Like there's I think a sink and it doesn't have pills.
00:41:56
And then it does have, it has pills and some alcohol, and then
00:42:00
just other things around the boat like scuba tanks and spear
00:42:06
guns and then his weapons. And it just shows, like I think
00:42:12
him in the first season and then him now and him as a warrior and
00:42:18
then when he's off on his own. Yeah, and he fades.
00:42:22
I really like when that light goes to dark, he's standing in
00:42:25
the kitchen and and he fades. It's almost like his humanity
00:42:28
fading. I I think it's really symbolic
00:42:31
and well done. I think there's also a a
00:42:35
silhouette of someone's arm that you'll know if you've seen the
00:42:38
first season. Now I got to look for that.
00:42:43
Is that when he's standing there?
00:42:44
That's when you see that. Yeah, see, I'm not, I'm not good
00:42:51
at picking up Easter eggs. I have an attention span of like
00:42:55
a goldfish I guess. Well, Chris, there's a good
00:42:58
YouTube channel for you. We can help you out.
00:43:00
Yeah, I know, I know, I know. That's that's what we need.
00:43:02
That's what we need. Letter grade four and five is a
00:43:08
package. I don't know if I went like I
00:43:11
went B plus for Episode 1 and then I went straight A for 2/3.
00:43:15
I don't know, I think I'm going to go back down to like an A
00:43:17
minus for these. They're I don't know, I I still
00:43:23
like the progression of the story.
00:43:24
I like the introspection we're getting with, you know, this
00:43:28
sort of dichotomy between Rafe and and Ben throwing in some
00:43:32
action, they're throwing in some intrigue and it's got me super,
00:43:37
super looking forward to the next two episodes.
00:43:40
Like I can't wait for I don't know when Amazon does their
00:43:43
drops. Like I know it comes out
00:43:44
tomorrow. We're recording this on Tuesday,
00:43:47
September 16th. So like does it come out tonight
00:43:50
at midnight like or 3:00 PM like Pacific Time like or 3:00 AM
00:43:55
Pacific Time like I don't know. But I would watch it tomorrow
00:44:00
morning if it's available. Yeah, good.
00:44:01
Question like get to work early and then then hide my cubicle
00:44:05
and watch it? Yeah, and we, we were going to
00:44:09
package episode 6 and seven as our final episode.
00:44:11
If 6 does something phenomenal that we have to kind of jump on
00:44:15
and get that one done, we we may do that, but otherwise you won't
00:44:18
hear from us again talking Dark Wolf until episode 6 and seven
00:44:23
are out and we have a conclusion.
00:44:24
And we will be bringing on Tyler Brewer.
00:44:26
So yet another Jack. Our Supervan doesn't have his
00:44:29
own awesome YouTube channel about Easter eggs and spoilers,
00:44:32
but we'll talk to him about the conclusion.
00:44:38
Well, why don't you leave us with a plug?
00:44:40
We talked a little bit about your channel.
00:44:41
You opened up with it. Just tell the people where they
00:44:43
can find you. And how can people get into
00:44:45
Terminal vengeance? Yeah, my main platform is
00:44:50
YouTube. I try to be consistent with my
00:44:52
videos and I've built a pretty good community there and I love
00:44:58
interacting with other fans. But you can find me at Terminal
00:45:02
Vengeance on YouTube, Instagram and X, and I'm also launching my
00:45:07
website here shortly. Nice, cool.
00:45:11
That's awesome. Yeah.
00:45:13
No, this was this was great. I think one, I'm happy to see
00:45:19
younger, the younger generation like diving into these books
00:45:23
and, and, and enjoying these because, you know, it wasn't
00:45:27
long ago that I was in college and my buddy Mike and my buddy
00:45:32
Tom handed me my first Brad Thore and and Vince pin book.
00:45:35
And then, you know, they had a sucker for life, the Emily
00:45:39
Bessler books. And but, you know, I think it's
00:45:43
just the more we can build this community, the better.
00:45:47
So I encourage all of our listeners to go out there, check
00:45:50
you out, hit hit that subscribe button.
00:45:53
Yeah. And I look forward to watching
00:45:54
more. More of your Easter eggs for
00:45:57
sure. Thank you.
00:46:03
Yeah, thanks for coming on. Maybe we'll even get a chance to
00:46:05
talk Cry Havoc with you once that book comes out.
00:46:07
So when or any other time, we'd love to have you back on on the
00:46:10
show. So stay in touch.
00:46:12
And and thanks for all that you do to expand the Jacquard
00:46:15
universe. Yeah, thank you for having me.
00:46:18
This has been a blast and I'd love to come back on, but if not
00:46:22
I'll still be listening and I love what you all do.
00:46:27
Appreciate it. Thanks.
00:46:28
Thanks dude.